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Market Orders - Something funny going on?

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Posted (edited)

This is probably a case of paranoia but I'll ask anyway

I trade gold and silver mostly and many times this phenomenon occurs. I put on a trade at a MARKET ORDER and it seems to fill right at the extreme  wick of a candle and when I put a stop on it it's like the price reaches down to knock it out . 

Look at the chart (The time axis is because I am in asia), In the last hour I put on a LONG Silver trade [AUGUSD] with ProRealTime , I bought in at the (orange circle) I am 99.99% certain I put it on at the yellow line price . Once the trade moved in my favour, I put a stop on at break even (blue circle). It ENTERED and EXITED exactly at the wick, both times

On a such a extremely liquid market I don't see how this happens so much.  The paranoid side of me is thinking this is rigged somehow.  It's just happens too many times to be a coincidence, computer bots, IG ? Surely with the amount of orders going in on gold I can't be landing on the extreme of a candle wick

What's the explanation for this or am I a candidate for the flat earth society  ?

Gold.jpg

Edited by DavyJones

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You do know the PRT prices are stuck on the Mid and not Ask or Bid so its never going to look like you get in at the right price looking at the charts

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, mark27 said:

You do know the PRT prices are stuck on the Mid and not Ask or Bid so its never going to look like you get in at the right price looking at the charts

Hi Mark, no that's what the green band is showing, the Bid ASK spread, they match the online platform exactly , You have to add it on to the chart 

Edited by DavyJones

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Posted (edited)

Exact same thing  Silver trade from 2 days ago. Its as well I keep notes on all my trades. 

 

1532915483_Silver2-28Jul20.thumb.jpg.5b4374a54b2f278b55c6a51973cbdc7f.jpg

 

 

Edited by DavyJones

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Posted (edited)

No I know the band is the spread at the current time but on PRT if you hit Buy exactly when price touches your yellow line looking at that chart ,that is not the price you get in at 

That why the little arrow is higher on you buy and lower on your sell

Edited by mark27
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3 minutes ago, mark27 said:

No I know the band is the spread at the current time but on PRT if you hit Buy exactly when price touches your yellow line looking at that chart ,that is not the price you get in at 

That why the little arrow is higher on you buy and lower on your sell

 

I don't quite get that, that's the point of the ASK price, sure there can be some slippage but its not a certainty to be filled at a worse price that the ASK,  

 

In any case that doesn't explain in a highly liquid market why the order gets filled at the extreme of the 2min wicks. Law of probability would suggest it somewhere in the middle.  

 

 

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21 minutes ago, mark27 said:

You do know the PRT prices are stuck on the Mid and not Ask or Bid so its never going to look like you get in at the right price looking at the charts

 

You do know that you're a knuckledragging, mouthbreathing moron, don't you?

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5 minutes ago, DavyJones said:

On a such a extremely liquid market I don't see how this happens so much.  The paranoid side of me is thinking this is rigged somehow.  It's just happens too many times to be a coincidence, computer bots, IG ? Surely with the amount of orders going in on gold I can't be landing on the extreme of a candle wick

Buying the close of a strong bull bar is perfectly reasonable when expecting continuation upward, the stop is the problem.

Initially your stop was at A in my pic but then after a new low at B you moved it up but before price had passed the new prior high, that would have been the better time to raise it.

As it was you joined the stops of those new entries at the pin bar new low (B).

Everyone knows where the stops are, a big player can hit them with precision.

The large red bar down was a stop hunt to capture those long contracts (including yours), a strong bear bar with no attempt at continuation but steady buying instead.

It is very usual for your entry to get tested  but I don't like to see price go to far towards my stop, I would avoid the break even stops and if not willing to leave it below the low would put it behind the entry rather than on it.

image.png.f3779f496d7298a8d7bab932b04706a0.png

 

 

 

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On PRT you cant adjust what prices you see so they are all Mid prices .so if using their chart you have to account for the spread.

So for example if trading Dax the spread is 1.2 .If you see the high of the day is 12000 and want to go long at that price you have to enter 12000.6 which is half the spread.

So basically you have to add half the spread to orders .Its easier if what your trading is fixed spread its always the same,But if you are trading something with variable spreads its harder to account for it.

 

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24 minutes ago, mark27 said:

On PRT you cant adjust what prices you see so they are all Mid prices .so if using their chart you have to account for the spread.

So for example if trading Dax the spread is 1.2 .If you see the high of the day is 12000 and want to go long at that price you have to enter 12000.6 which is half the spread.

So basically you have to add half the spread to orders .Its easier if what your trading is fixed spread its always the same,But if you are trading something with variable spreads its harder to account for it.

 

 
 
 

 

You're a bit simple, aren't you.  :) 

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54 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

Buying the close of a strong bull bar is perfectly reasonable when expecting continuation upward, the stop is the problem.

Initially your stop was at A in my pic but then after a new low at B you moved it up but before price had passed the new prior high, that would have been the better time to raise it.

As it was you joined the stops of those new entries at the pin bar new low (B).

Everyone knows where the stops are, a big player can hit them with precision.

The large red bar down was a stop hunt to capture those long contracts (including yours), a strong bear bar with no attempt at continuation but steady buying instead.

It is very usual for your entry to get tested  but I don't like to see price go to far towards my stop, I would avoid the break even stops and if not willing to leave it below the low would put it behind the entry rather than on it.

image.png.f3779f496d7298a8d7bab932b04706a0.png

 

 

 

 

cheers, I am playing around with stops , its hard to know what to do . I found that with stops, you often get knocked out by a sharp downward wick, In fact trailing stops seem to have this effect, not sure. Then if you don't use them you need to be watching the screen  all day. I guess this is why back testing is somewhat limited as you are missing the real time limits and stops which influence the price 

On that particular trade yes I moved the stop to breakeven but as the price approached it I thought about removing the stop, then talked myself out of it for lack of discipline. 

I need to read up on the mechanics of what specifically happens under spread bet. Did you have an suggestions for a link?

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1 hour ago, mark27 said:

On PRT you cant adjust what prices you see so they are all Mid prices .so if using their chart you have to account for the spread.

So for example if trading Dax the spread is 1.2 .If you see the high of the day is 12000 and want to go long at that price you have to enter 12000.6 which is half the spread.

So basically you have to add half the spread to orders .Its easier if what your trading is fixed spread its always the same,But if you are trading something with variable spreads its harder to account for it.

Sorry Mark really not following , every trade has the BID ASK attached in PRT, it usually fills at this price

FTSE.jpg

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4 minutes ago, DavyJones said:

Sorry Mark really not following , every trade has the BID ASK attached in PRT, it usually fills at this price

FTSE.jpg

So Buy@6037.7 say.On the chart the price is 6037.2 .So your entry level arrow will be higher 

I`m just answering the question of when you said you thought you bought at the yellow line but it is higher on the charts that all.I know you are questioning other aspects but all I was pointing out is on PRT prices are mid that all

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Stop placement is probably the hardest thing to do with a profitable trade - only thing i can suggest is that you should know exactly where your stop and trailing stop are going before you get into a trade

Swing lows are obvious but as you've seen a nice wash and rinse can happen at that point

Can you repost the original chart and show where you're initial stop was placed?

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This is something to be aware of when using automated trading in proorder

as an example

 

Spread.png

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Also consider Latency (not actual slippage), my mt4 platform has a latency of a quarter of a second for the round trip which doesn't sound much but sometimes price can move a are bit in that time. 

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1 hour ago, DavyJones said:

I need to read up on the mechanics of what specifically happens under spread bet. Did you have an suggestions for a link?

 

31 minutes ago, THT said:

Stop placement is probably the hardest thing to do with a profitable trade

Yes, stops are probably more difficult to mange than the entry. If you are looking to understand the thinking of a day trader on a candle by candle basis I would suggest some of Al Brooks's books or videos.

This one for instance looks at getting into a trend late, entering long on a bull candle close, where the stop must go and so therefore what the position size must be, scaling in and averaging, getting out at average break-even if needed, etc.

Very dry, matter of fact, dear I say dull presentation (same as the books) but worth persevering with.

 

 

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cheers man, will watching as I type . I am jumping around from strategy to strategy too much.

I will start a new testing plan tomorrow, For an hour a day, I will go through a charts bar by bar testing an example strategy like the one above, and see if I can narrow in from there  

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I was going to offer some advice - anyway, if it were me the initial stop would have been somewhere on that green entry bar and then it would have been trailed upwards to preserve a % of open profits so that a profitable trade did not turn into a b/e trade or loss

 

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38 minutes ago, DavyJones said:

cheers man, will watching as I type . I am jumping around from strategy to strategy too much.

I will start a new testing plan tomorrow, For an hour a day, I will go through a charts bar by bar testing an example strategy like the one above, and see if I can narrow in from there  

 

23 minutes ago, THT said:

I was going to offer some advice - anyway, if it were me the initial stop would have been somewhere on that green entry bar and then it would have been trailed upwards to preserve a % of open profits so that a profitable trade did not turn into a b/e trade or loss

 

that's correct, there are many ways to play it but nothing works for everything, the only way to know for your preferred time frame on your preferred market is by testing.

The good news is that testing doesn't cost money, only time. 

The easiest way to test is by keeping a win% score and using a fixed risk:reward then plot the score on to the profitability chart below (more detail in the Trade Planning and Testing thread).

image.png.298b4fd4a197b694914dae0e699984eb.png

 

 

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