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Platforms and API down again today


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8 minutes ago, jlz said:

Great questions, I mentioned a cut in liquidity because that is normally the reason why brokers stop allowing access. Usually because of high volatility and unavailability of market makers.

I can tell that the API fails at retrieving the user account, it is able to authenticate and throws an exception when tries to get the account. This would align with the point that is able to load MyIG and not able to change accounts.

What I don't understand is how many brokers around the world have reported the same issue. And that is what led me to the common point they all have, access to the underlying market. 

You made a point mentioning that a broker takes the other side of the bet. If there is a cut from their providers they cannot hedge the bet in the market so they have to realise any spike in volatility as losses. Many users, from many brokers, have mentioned that they saw their access restored when their profits deflated, i.e. Richiep123's comment above. 

Things add up if we mix plenty of users trying  to catch the moment at the US opening and brokers not willing to support their bets. 

Or conspiracy theories aside, demand for retail trading has increased massively during the pandemic, compounded by the new year and a new lockdows, the systems at IG and perhaps other places cannot cope with the demand especially at peak times of the day.

As I said in a another reply, I do not buy the targeted user conspiracy nor "the big boys" are calling the shots conspiracy, but I am nonetheless very unhappy with the robustness of the IG systems right now and require assurances that the issues we have seen this week do not persist. 

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API is down and the status page shows as operational. Seriously guys this is ridiculous. Just shutdown that useless status page, it is only getting people even angrier.

Indeed... You would have thought they would have prepared for this, especially after so many outages yesterday.

You'd think that they would have prepared well after the Wednesday's mess. Alas, it's happening every day for 3 days in a row, and we get a boiler-plate response. Seriously?

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10 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Or conspiracy theories aside, demand for retail trading has increased massively during the pandemic, compounded by the new year and a new lockdows, the systems at IG and perhaps other places cannot cope with the demand especially at peak times of the day.

As I said in a another reply, I do not buy the targeted user conspiracy nor "the big boys" are calling the shots conspiracy, but I am nonetheless very unhappy with the robustness of the IG systems right now and require assurances that the issues we have seen this week do not persist. 

I would be happy to take credit of what I am saying but I cannot. It is well written and documented by many.

https://www.match-trade.com/how-does-increased-volatility-of-the-markets-affect-the-brokerage-business/

 

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8 minutes ago, jlz said:

I would be happy to take credit of what I am saying but I cannot. It is well written and documented by many.

https://www.match-trade.com/how-does-increased-volatility-of-the-markets-affect-the-brokerage-business/

 

You honestly believe IG are targeting individual accounts? that they are destroying their own reputation intentionally with these outages ? I simply do not believe that.

From the article you posted "Operational risk is the last type of risk associated with higher volatility. During highly increased interest in trading, the broker’s IT infrastructure needs to be able to handle thousands of users and trades coming in online." this is the real issue in my humble opinion

Edited by Morpheus
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12 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

You honestly believe IG are targeting individual accounts? that they are destroying their own reputation intentionally with these outages ? I simply do not believe that.

From the article you posted "Operational risk is the last type of risk associated with higher volatility. During highly increased interest in trading, the broker’s IT infrastructure needs to be able to handle thousands of users and trades coming in online." this is the real issue in my humble opinion

I never said that IG is targeting at retail traders, I said clearly that if there is no liquidity they can't provide a service so they can't operate as normally.  Now you are taking a bit of text to prove one of the points. I said clearly that I understand that there is an increase of users coming online but that does not trigger the failure. 

Read the article carefully, you will understand that an increase of users is just the beginning of the problem, the end is when a broker does not have access to liquidity in very volatile markets. 

Edited by jlz
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4 minutes ago, jlz said:

I never said that IG is targeting at retail traders, I said clearly that if there is no liquidity they can't provide a service so they can't operate as normally.  Now you are taking a bit of text to prove one of the points. I said clearly that I understand that there is an increase of users coming online but that does not trigger the failure. 

Read the article carefully, you will understand that an increase of users is just the beginning of the problem, the end is when a brokers does not have access to liquidity in very volatile markets. 

OK, I'm not really convinced and my view is still that it is IT infrastructure issues that are causing the problems, let's hope I'm right because that should be fixable by IG unilaterally. I've put an email into my account manager to see if he is able to give me a detailed explanation. 

Edited by Morpheus
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8 minutes ago, jlz said:

I never said that IG is targeting at retail traders, I said clearly that if there is no liquidity they can't provide a service so they can't operate as normally.  Now you are taking a bit of text to prove one of the points. I said clearly that I understand that there is an increase of users coming online but that does not trigger the failure. 

Read the article carefully, you will understand that an increase of users is just the beginning of the problem, the end is when a brokers does not have access to liquidity in very volatile markets. 

Another thought that I alluded to in my first reply is this, if IG detected liquidity issues in some markets they would restrict only those markets, if IG detected lack of liquidity in all markets they might prevent logging in, but I fail to see why the price feeds via the streaming API would be suspended, nor why they would not have a sensible message saying "system not available try later" what we saw were system failures during loggin, difficulty accessing myig, but sometimes worked etc etc etc, these symptoms, in my view, do not fit your lack of liquidity provider hypothesis, they do however fit my IT infrastructure overload hypothesis.

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In fairness to IG Hargreaves Lansdown has not always been brilliant recently, with some odd messages appearing on some screens (I only use Windows 10)

I only opened up a small account with IG to see if any better than HL. Both have stengths and weaknesses, neither is perfect. HL is much easier to use ,and shows the proper cost of a transaction. No good saying just the cost before dealing charges and Stamp Duty, as I still have to pay them. I know there is a statement somewhere that shows them, but cannot find that or Tax year end summary on the Android app. Is there a simple instruction manual for Android app somewhere? Just says what to do for all common tasks. Maybe IG dont want amateur investors?

Many thanks. 

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"The number of OTC leveraged active clients increased by 49% on the first half of FY20."

"Our stock trading product performed exceptionally well, with revenue increasing over 250%. This was driven by an 88% increase in the number of clients trading,"

"We've significantly increased capacity across our platforms since the summer, which enabled us to maintain 100% platform uptime while handling the substantially higher trading volumes we've seen in the first half. We've also increased our operations headcount, which includes client service and account opening, by 35. This is partially in response to the step-change in the size of the client base. However, some of this was also to help drive a number of operational projects to ensure we can meet the growing demands of our increasingly diverse and global client base"

as a sidenote, 

"The average age of tastytrade clients is 42 years old, the same as IG"

https://www.iggroup.com/investors/financial-results/results-reports-and-presentations/result/year/2021

PDF

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25 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Another thought that I alluded to in my first reply is this, if IG detected liquidity issues in some markets they would restrict only those markets, if IG detected lack of liquidity in all markets they might prevent logging in, but I fail to see why the price feeds via the streaming API would be suspended, nor why they would not have a sensible message saying "system not available try later" what we saw were system failures during loggin, difficulty accessing myig, but sometimes worked etc etc etc, these symptoms, in my view, do not fit your lack of liquidity provider hypothesis, they do however fit my IT infrastructure overload hypothesis.

Ok you win. I can't add anything else. 

Wait I can, google broker issues during the week.

It is interesting to see that the "IT issue"  presents exactly the same symptoms in every single broker across the world. Check elitetrader forums and you will see people talking about Interactive Brokers. You could copy their messages and they would fit in this thread easily. Check Ameritrade as well if you are not happy. 

Check also the many post that are around Twitter about Robinhood. All having "technical issues" at the same time. 

Really? Every single broker having the same technical issues at the US opening? 

I happen to be an IT Technical Architect, independent contractor, so you have to explain that IT issue to me in detail because I can't buy it. 

Where is exactly that bottleneck? Is it at the load balancer? Is it at the gateway? Is it at the database server? Is it at the rest server? How come that I am able to authenticate and not get the account through the API? I did not get a timeout from the API, I did get a 503, internal server error. Do you know what that means ? It means a service chain broken in one of the servers, one particular service of the network, not the entire access. 

It is very easy to say "technical issues" , but try me harder because I saw with my exception handling module exactly what happened yesterday and the http protocol tells you exactly what is going on. 

 

 

Edited by jlz
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6 minutes ago, jlz said:

Ok you win. I can't add anything else. 

Wait I can, google broker issues during the week.

It is interesting to see that the "IT issue"  presents exactly the same symptoms in every single broker across the world. Check elitetrader forums and you will see people talking about Interactive Brokers. You could copy their messages and they would fit in this thread easily. Check Ameritrade as well if you are not happy. 

Check also the many post that are around Twitter about Robinhood. All having "technical issues" at the same time. 

Really? Every single broker having the same technical issues at the US opening? 

I happen to be an IT Technical Architect, independent contractor, so you have to explain that IT issue to me in detail because I can't buy it. 

Where is exactly that bottleneck? Is it at the load balancer? Is it at the gateway? Is it at the database server? Is it at the rest server? How come that I am able to authenticate and not get the account through the API? I did not get a timeout from the API, I did get a 503, internal server error. Do you know what that means ? It means a service chain broken in one of the servers, one particular service of the network, not the entire access. 

It is very easy to say "technical issues" , but try me harder because I saw with my exception handling module exactly what happened yesterday and the http protocol tells you exactly what is going on. 

 

 

Let us wait and see, it does not seem unreasonable to me that if there is a massive peak in demand that multiple brokers would fail at the same time.

503 means service unavailable. Exactly what you might expect if a system were overloaded. 

I'm also an IT guy, software engineer for some 40+ years.

In my log is "Exception: HTTP status code 504 {"errorCode":"error.security.authentication.timeout"}"
 
and also this "Exception: HTTP status code 503 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
<html><head>
<title>503 Service Temporarily Unavailable</title>
</head><body>
<h1>Service Temporarily Unavailable</h1>
<p>The server is temporarily unable to service your
request due to maintenance downtime or capacity
problems. Please try again later.</p>"

I don't think this proves either your nor my hypothesis, but I still favour "capacity problems"

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3 hours ago, jlz said:

Ok you win. I can't add anything else. 

Wait I can, google broker issues during the week.

It is interesting to see that the "IT issue"  presents exactly the same symptoms in every single broker across the world. Check elitetrader forums and you will see people talking about Interactive Brokers. You could copy their messages and they would fit in this thread easily. Check Ameritrade as well if you are not happy. 

Check also the many post that are around Twitter about Robinhood. All having "technical issues" at the same time. 

Really? Every single broker having the same technical issues at the US opening? 

I happen to be an IT Technical Architect, independent contractor, so you have to explain that IT issue to me in detail because I can't buy it. 

Where is exactly that bottleneck? Is it at the load balancer? Is it at the gateway? Is it at the database server? Is it at the rest server? How come that I am able to authenticate and not get the account through the API? I did not get a timeout from the API, I did get a 503, internal server error. Do you know what that means ? It means a service chain broken in one of the servers, one particular service of the network, not the entire access. 

It is very easy to say "technical issues" , but try me harder because I saw with my exception handling module exactly what happened yesterday and the http protocol tells you exactly what is going on. 

 

 

It is also possible that some brokers are being subjected to DDoS attacks at around the time of the NY open

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4 hours ago, Morpheus said:

You honestly believe IG are targeting individual accounts? that they are destroying their own reputation intentionally with these outages ? I simply do not believe that.

From the article you posted "Operational risk is the last type of risk associated with higher volatility. During highly increased interest in trading, the broker’s IT infrastructure needs to be able to handle thousands of users and trades coming in online." this is the real issue in my humble opinion

In my view the real reason for the outages is a policy decision on the part of IG to minimise liquidity risks. In my opinion, the most relevant part of that article is the one below

The fact IG is hiking up margin requirements all over the place and  completely restricted trading in a few shares should tell you something. Given the lack of explanation from IG.COM about the cause for the outages, people are entirely justified in drawing their own conclusions (what you call conspiracy theories) based on the broader ongoing context. I'd rather hear direct from the horses mouth than you hunches and assumptions

You say you've been in system development for 40yrs. Perhaps this has made you overly technology centric? Your focus on your API integration is revealing. Most punters simply want to be able to log in to the platforms and trade at all opportune moments. IG seems to be copying the China playbook of shutting things down when it perceives a threat!

 

"In this situation, also A-Book brokers are not secure. There are many examples in the forex industry of STP brokers’ failures. Counterparty risk associated with liquidity provider can be crucial if we mitigate to them significant and concentrated exposures. In case chosen liquidity provider is not able to cover profits generated on hedge account, our business model will collapse like a house of cards. 

Even if you decide to minimize the counterparty risk by connecting to the biggest liquidity providers or even prime of prime, in most cases such LPs are not flexible enough and cannot offer you negative balance protection. This can lead to a situation where your clients would generate huge negative balances on their accounts. Liquidity provider would ask to cover the negative balance on a hedge account, but the broker wouldn’t be able to reclaim money from traders. Such loss can be disastrous for your brokerage, especially as STP is a commission-based model."

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8 minutes ago, Ikechukwu said:

In my view the real reason for the outages is a policy decision on the part of IG to minimise liquidity risks. In my opinion, the most relevant part of that article is the one below

The fact IG is hiking up margin requirements all over the place and  completely restricted trading in a few shares should tell you something. Given the lack of explanation from IG.COM about the cause for the outages, people are entirely justified in drawing their own conclusions (what you call conspiracy theories) based on the broader ongoing context. I'd rather hear direct from the horses mouth than you hunches and assumptions

You say you've been in system development for 40yrs. Perhaps this has made you overly technology centric? Your focus on your API integration is revealing. Most punters simply want to be able to log in to the platforms and trade at all opportune moments. IG seems to be copying the China playbook of shutting things down when it perceives a threat!

 

"In this situation, also A-Book brokers are not secure. There are many examples in the forex industry of STP brokers’ failures. Counterparty risk associated with liquidity provider can be crucial if we mitigate to them significant and concentrated exposures. In case chosen liquidity provider is not able to cover profits generated on hedge account, our business model will collapse like a house of cards. 

Even if you decide to minimize the counterparty risk by connecting to the biggest liquidity providers or even prime of prime, in most cases such LPs are not flexible enough and cannot offer you negative balance protection. This can lead to a situation where your clients would generate huge negative balances on their accounts. Liquidity provider would ask to cover the negative balance on a hedge account, but the broker wouldn’t be able to reclaim money from traders. Such loss can be disastrous for your brokerage, especially as STP is a commission-based model."

I would also prefer to hear from the horses mouth I have a email into my account manager, hopefully that will shed some light.

I don't think I'm overly IT centric, I ran a number of businesses and operated in multiple roles, but I've seen a lot of system problems and bugs over the years and this to me looks like an overload, maybe an excessive amount of users or potentially a DDoS attack.

As you say IG can increase margin requirements in a response to volatility, they don't need to play bogus system error games,  in my view, as downtime is extremely damaging to their reputation. 

 

Edited by Morpheus
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These are the brokers that were reported  to have problems yesterday.

https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/ig-broker
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/cmc-markets
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/etrade
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/etoro
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/interactive-brokers
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/robinhood
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/td-ameritrade
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/trading-212

We can tell that the down time was very similar in all of them, with the exception of Robinhood that is still having problems. If you click on the full report you will see the location where those users reported the problem from, they are all over the world.

Some users are already pointing out in comments that there was a shortage of equity liquidity from the usual providers. Now the question to me really is : Why those liquidity providers stopped or decreased their availability over the last week?

Some will point to the recent news about GME and Reddit but I can't subscribe that, mainly because I can't prove it. All I can say is that the reason why we had an outage seams obvious,  but the trigger is still to be understood.

 

Edited by jlz
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21 minutes ago, jlz said:

These are the brokers that were reported  to have problems yesterday.

https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/ig-broker
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/cmc-markets
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/etrade
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/etoro
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/interactive-brokers
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/robinhood
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/td-ameritrade
https://istheservicedown.co.uk/status/trading-212

We can tell that the down time was very similar in all of them, with the exception of Robinhood that is still having problems. If you click on the full report you will see the location where those users reported the problem from, they are all over the world.

Some users are already pointing out in comments that there was a shortage of equity liquidity from the usual providers. Now the question to me really is : Why those liquidity providers stopped or decreased their availability over the last week?

Some will point to the recent news about GME and Reddit but I can't subscribe that, mainly because I can't prove it. All I can say is that the reason why we had an outage seams obvious,  but the trigger is still to be understood.

 

Can we find out if there are common liquidity providers to these brokers ?

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The liquidity providers are all the usual suspects, big banks, pension funds and hedge funds. All has to go through clearing houses and and for a seat at that table you need to place a large deposit to cover ongoing transactions, that deposit can increase 10 fold on high volume moves that soaks up all the available liquidity.

Brokers find all their clients are one way so can't net off in-house and can't hedge so they close the book once their own risk highs are hit . Saw it happen a lot during bitcoin's pulse surges during 2017.

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49 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Can we find out if there are common liquidity providers to these brokers ?

The list is not small, for any query I send to Google I get the usual big bank names where Citibank and Citadel seems to be the most common among other 15-20 providers.

Many comments came out pointing that broker shortages are normally related to these providers but none mentioned exact names and particular reasons. 

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34 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

The liquidity providers are all the usual suspects, big banks, pension funds and hedge funds. All has to go through clearing houses and and for a seat at that table you need to place a large deposit to cover ongoing transactions, that deposit can increase 10 fold on high volume moves that soaks up all the available liquidity.

Brokers find all their clients are one way so can't net off in-house and can't hedge so they close the book once their own risk highs are hit . Saw it happen a lot during bitcoin's pulse surges during 2017.

Is it likely in your view that a broker would fain loggin and platform issues general if it had insufficient liquidity ?

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3 minutes ago, jlz said:

The list is not small, for any query I send to Google I get the usual big bank names where Citibank and Citadel seems to be the most common among other 15-20 providers.

Many comments came out pointing that broker shortages are normally related to these providers but none mentioned exact names and particular reasons. 

I still favour a technical problem over IG faining technical problems to cover something up, maybe there is a common infrastructure for liquidity provision that could have failed somehow ? 

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I found this sort of thing happening years ago and stopped trading due to frustration (and did OK with a buy and long only strategy on various funds) - City Index and Finspreads were constantly having 'technical issues' whenever the market got interesting. 

I assumed that things had moved on - are brokers still running their own tin?  Surely there are some brokers that are using modern best practices for dev and ops to allow scaling to meet demand?  We're not in 2008 now.

Has there been an explanation of the nature of the 'technical issue' yet?  Have IG (or any of the other 7 or so main retail brokers - listed by jlz above) said if the technical issue is an in-house issue or some other bottleneck in the wider system of systems'? 

If each broker is facing an in-house issue, then this points to underinvestment / sweating assets, and a complete lack of user focus.  Alternatively there is something wrong with the wider system of system - but where and how do you fix it.  If it really is the latter - my guess is it won't get fixed because it is sometimes very convenient. 

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13 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Is it likely in your view that a broker would fain loggin and platform issues general if it had insufficient liquidity ?

I don't see the need to fain login problems, I think the login issue was down to system overload which is bad considering they had similar issues during the covid crisis March 2020, seems to be a rush to sign up more and more clients but less concern over tech catch up issues. 

With regards liquidity they constantly monitor what's available and take the best prices from whoever as needed. In times of high volume multiple handles are taken up all at once, the next best price can be a long way from the last best price, if over certain slippage limits they will cancel your order and requote, in extreme cases they will just close the whole book and wait for calm. 

All perfectly legal and not unreasonable if the alternative puts the whole business at risk. 

 

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2 hours ago, NotAlwaysVolatile said:

I found this sort of thing happening years ago and stopped trading due to frustration (and did OK with a buy and long only strategy on various funds) - City Index and Finspreads were constantly having 'technical issues' whenever the market got interesting. 

I assumed that things had moved on - are brokers still running their own tin?  Surely there are some brokers that are using modern best practices for dev and ops to allow scaling to meet demand?  We're not in 2008 now.

Has there been an explanation of the nature of the 'technical issue' yet?  Have IG (or any of the other 7 or so main retail brokers - listed by jlz above) said if the technical issue is an in-house issue or some other bottleneck in the wider system of systems'? 

If each broker is facing an in-house issue, then this points to underinvestment / sweating assets, and a complete lack of user focus.  Alternatively there is something wrong with the wider system of system - but where and how do you fix it.  If it really is the latter - my guess is it won't get fixed because it is sometimes very convenient. 

as has been said elsewhere in this thread, seems likely they are taking on many new clients and not improving the infrastructure pro-rata.

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On 30/01/2021 at 16:28, jlz said:

The list is not small, for any query I send to Google I get the usual big bank names where Citibank and Citadel seems to be the most common among other 15-20 providers.

Many comments came out pointing that broker shortages are normally related to these providers but none mentioned exact names and particular reasons. 

Have you noticed today that you can only have one device open at a time? for example if I log in on the phone app it logs me out on my MacBook browser, this is a reasonable thing I think and will presumably reduce the number of concurrent connections to the IG servers, this action alone, is enough to conclude that the outsages were indeed related to system overload at least in large part.

 

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27 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Have you noticed today that you can only have one device open at a time? for example if I log in on the phone app it logs me out on my MacBook browser, this is a reasonable thing I think and will presumably reduce the number of concurrent connections to the IG servers, this action alone, is enough to conclude that the outsages were indeed related to system overload at least in large part.

 

You are never going to stop :D

Now tell me why the API failed to respond at the same the website login did.

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3 minutes ago, jlz said:

You are never going to stop :D

Now tell me why the API failed to respond at the same the website login did.

haha ;). no never tenacity is my middle name ;)

My guess is some key resource was depleted by the number of concurrent connections.

 

 

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On 30/01/2021 at 13:28, Ikechukwu said:

In my view the real reason for the outages is a policy decision on the part of IG to minimise liquidity risks. In my opinion, the most relevant part of that article is the one below

The fact IG is hiking up margin requirements all over the place and  completely restricted trading in a few shares should tell you something. Given the lack of explanation from IG.COM about the cause for the outages, people are entirely justified in drawing their own conclusions (what you call conspiracy theories) based on the broader ongoing context. I'd rather hear direct from the horses mouth than you hunches and assumptions

You say you've been in system development for 40yrs. Perhaps this has made you overly technology centric? Your focus on your API integration is revealing. Most punters simply want to be able to log in to the platforms and trade at all opportune moments. IG seems to be copying the China playbook of shutting things down when it perceives a threat!

 

"In this situation, also A-Book brokers are not secure. There are many examples in the forex industry of STP brokers’ failures. Counterparty risk associated with liquidity provider can be crucial if we mitigate to them significant and concentrated exposures. In case chosen liquidity provider is not able to cover profits generated on hedge account, our business model will collapse like a house of cards. 

Even if you decide to minimize the counterparty risk by connecting to the biggest liquidity providers or even prime of prime, in most cases such LPs are not flexible enough and cannot offer you negative balance protection. This can lead to a situation where your clients would generate huge negative balances on their accounts. Liquidity provider would ask to cover the negative balance on a hedge account, but the broker wouldn’t be able to reclaim money from traders. Such loss can be disastrous for your brokerage, especially as STP is a commission-based model."

The horse has spoken ;)

IG apology.jpg

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