Is spread betting for fools?

[dmedin]

There's no 'way' to do it.  I'm beginning to come to the realization that it's all a massive con and a crock of shizzle (day trading at least).

[dmedin]

In my post above I said 2% of £2000 is £20.  D'oh!  It's of course £40 😊  Would still be better than the losses I've made over the last 10 months though hahahaha

Edited June 13, 2019 by dmedin

[nit2wynit]

1 hour ago, dmedin said:

In my post above I said 2% of £2000 is £20.  D'oh!  It's of course £40 😊  Would still be better than the losses I've made over the last 10 months though hahahaha

@dmedin I really hope to prove to you and myself that when I go Live again i can easily achieve £50 per day with a 2k account.  That is a minimum.

If you're watching and interested, I will endeavor to only make considered choices tomorrow of Dead Certs and post my results by the end of the day.  Full disclosure.  I may do multiple trades at once on different Stock, but all will be with a 2k account, making full use of my Margin.  as soon as I make £50, i'll post it here and Tag you.

[Caseynotes]

3 hours ago, nit2wynit said:

Margin £1800, buys me £170 pp.  2pt spread put me under £340.  Moved 4pts in seconds.  £340 profit.

@nit2wynit, not wishing to be rude but you probably won't realise this is never going to work until you try it on the live platform. 

With a bet size of £170 per point on a £2000 account you will sooner rather than later enter a trade with your 2 point spread only to find price immediately backs 3 points against you, you will then instantly s**t yourself and bail for a loss of 5 points and a loss of nearly half your account in the space of 3 seconds flat. After that you will probably never dare ever trade again. It just isn't a sustainable course of action

1 hour ago, dmedin said:

There's no 'way' to do it.  I'm beginning to come to the realization that it's all a massive con and a crock of shizzle (day trading at least).

When I go to get my car serviced I expect the mechanic to have some experience in the hope he will do it right, that's why I don't do it myself. I could try to learn do it myself with the help of a self help book or whatever but I suspect it might take some time to learn and that the car might take some damage in the learning process.

[nit2wynit]

1 minute ago, Caseynotes said:

@nit2wynit, not wishing to be rude but you probably won't realise this is never going to work until you try it on the live platform. 

With a bet size of £170 per point on a £2000 account you will sooner rather than later enter a trade with your 2 point spread only to find price immediately backs 3 points against you, you will then instantly s**t yourself and bail for a loss of 5 points and a loss of nearly half your account in the space of 3 seconds flat. After that you will probably never dare ever trade again. It just isn't a sustainable course of action

When I go to get my car serviced I expect the mechanic to have some experience in the hope he will do it right, that's why I don't do it myself. I could try to learn do it myself with the help of a self help book or whatever but I suspect it might take some time to learn and that the car might take some damage in the learning process.

@Caseynotes you'll see i did say, I would most likely NOT do this for real .  i also said it was the chart and Set up that was what i was looking at.  Therefore any size bet would deliver.

However, with more certainty in my chart reading, I dare say I might in the future.  However, my plan will not be to SB at that point but to literally Buy the Shares and Sell.

[Caseynotes]

1 minute ago, nit2wynit said:

@Caseynotes you'll see i did say, I would most likely NOT do this for real .  i also said it was the chart and Set up that was what i was looking at.  Therefore any size bet would deliver.

However, with more certainty in my chart reading, I dare say I might in the future.  However, my plan will not be to SB at that point but to literally Buy the Shares and Sell.

👍

[nit2wynit]

You're also forgetting that I have been live back in March and made wins and losses from £2 to £100 on several occasions with a £1400 account limit.  Yes, I left down £400. 

All we're talking about here is Consistency and 1:1 ratio.  My trades are often more than 50% wins.

Please discount my post last week with a considerable loss.  I have explained this loss in detail and my psychology at the time was well off.  I can't pretend I don't still have The Fear.

Edited June 13, 2019 by nit2wynit

[Caseynotes]

8 hours ago, nit2wynit said:

You're also forgetting that I have been live back in March and made wins and losses from £2 to £100 on several occasions with a £1400 account limit.  Yes, I left down £400. 

All we're talking about here is Consistency and 1:1 ratio.  My trades are often more than 50% wins.

Please discount my post last week with a considerable loss.  I have explained this loss in detail and my psychology at the time was well off.  I can't pretend I don't still have The Fear.

The fear factor is understandable and is directly proportional to the degree of risk and will always be there so long as the risk factor is huge and that was my concern. One bad problem of demo is that you can't learn the psychological aspects of trading from it, far worse it actually encourages a gung ho attitude which usually leads to the rather quick death of a live account.

On an educational note I found this web site a while back though haven't had the time to look at it depth it did look to have a lot of useful material covering a lot of ground.

https://www.daytrading.com/

 

[dmedin]

10 hours ago, Caseynotes said:

When I go to get my car serviced I expect the mechanic to have some experience in the hope he will do it right, that's why I don't do it myself. I could try to learn do it myself with the help of a self help book or whatever but I suspect it might take some time to learn and that the car might take some damage in the learning process.

 

Another day, try again.

I am still holding faith that trading can be learned in the same way as a skilled profession like a mechanic.  It suits my personality and I enjoy it, except when I lose money.  So that's almost every day

Today I am trying the pivot points.  They look promising.  Something I have always had problems with is choosing support and resistance lines.  I end up with too many and get confused.  RealTimePro offers to automatically draw strong and weaker support and resistance lines for you, but I turned on the pivot point indicator in the HTML5 platform and it looks good.  Does the work for me ... great!

Edited June 14, 2019 by dmedin

[Caseynotes]

5 minutes ago, dmedin said:

Today I am trying the pivot points.  They look promising.

It's important to experiment, different things for different markets, the reality is that a relatively small number of very large institutional traders move the market, if you are using something similar to them your indicator will suddenly magically work, until they go off to lunch or whatever 🙂.

Pivots are one of the oldies handed down through generations of traders, they often work well in the more established main markets.

[nit2wynit]

4 hours ago, TrendFollower said:

@nit2wynit,

I think because you have decided that you must day trade, you may enter trades that are found out of desperation rather than meeting your personal requirements. You may be forced into a trade by the simple need to trade at least once per day if not more or the simple need to make a certain amount of money per day. Such targets generally will lead to failure in my opinion. 

If you only trade when certain signals / indicators are met based on your personal requirements and strategy and only trade those then it will be interesting to see if your performance improves as a result. I think it should increase your chances of success. 

If you held on to a winning trade until the trend reverses and say this was for 4 days or 4 weeks. Would the profit be greater than day trading every day in that same period?

Must Day Trade?  No.  Can Day Trade.  I have the time and the will to Intraday Trade.  If i make £50 in 2 hours I'm done till the next day.  Or if i see a particular set up i will trade that too.  I will make some lose some.  So long as I am consistent with a 1:1 porift loss, I'm hoping to end up or even each week.

Holding a Trade for Days or Weeks!!!...is not Day Trading, or Intraday Trading!  I am a Day trader.  All Trades will be closed by the End of the Day.

My Target is to make £50 per day. or more specifically £200 per week.

[Caseynotes]

14 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Must Day Trade?  No.  Can Day Trade.  I have the time and the will to Intraday Trade.  If i make £50 in 2 hours I'm done till the next day.  Or if i see a particular set up i will trade that too.  I will make some lose some.  So long as I am consistent with a 1:1 porift loss, I'm hoping to end up or even each week.

Holding a Trade for Days or Weeks!!!...is not Day Trading, or Intraday Trading!  I am a Day trader.  All Trades will be closed by the End of the Day.

My Target is to make £50 per day. or more specifically £200 per week.

Quite correct, trendfollowing is more akin to investing than trading. Do take a look at the daytrading.com link a few posts up, it looks to be quite a good resource for all things day trading, even has a stocks section.

[nit2wynit]

@Caseynotes @TrendFollower @dmedin 

We all know that we must be careful.  We all know we must limit risk.  We all know we must have a strategy.  But we must also have courage, staying power and a strong stomach for losses.

Not sure why there'a always so much resistance to Day Trading.  I mean yeah, I get it, it's not for everyone.  Try not to push so hard against it because it's not something you like, understand or whatever.  I don't understand doing this part time.  I don't understand only making 2 trades per year.  I don't understand why someone would do  a 9-5 for 50 years.  I've worked for myself or been in education for the last 25 years!!!  Let's remember it's all Opinion, and an Opinion is collection of ideas based upon a lack of Fact.

Since 3.13 yesterday (I trade after US opens usually-this gives me the entire morning to research), and leaving 2 trades open by accident that luckily continued to go the same way, I achieved this on the Demo, all with a 2k account.  But to be honest, i would only be able to place one trade at a time, so in reality i couldn't have placed both.  However, what it demonstrates is that even with a 2k account I can move on to the next setup.  Add this to the £340 i showed you earlier (though I would NOT make this trade in real life at the moment) but also the -£30 -£50, then it's clear to see, that Demo or Not, the gains are possible.  I've posted my lists now several times of my successes on the Demo, but it proves that if you can remove the psychological barrier, success it not only possible, but guaranteed.


Is anyone else posting Wins/Losses using the Demo?  If it's a simple case of saying It's the Demo, we can all win, I'd like to see them here.

[nit2wynit]

Pahahahahhahahahah, Look at this!!!!!!!!!!

I wasn't studying the chart, just had a quick look on FTSE.  Been Dropping steadily since 10.20am.........

Figured a quick ride for £20...........4 pts.... Reversed lololololololol.

You couldn't write this **** :D

 

[Caseynotes]

 

13 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Pahahahahhahahahah, Look at this!!!!!!!!!!

I wasn't studying the chart, just had a quick look on FTSE.  Been Dropping steadily since 10.20am.........

Figured a quick ride for £20...........4 pts.... Reversed lololololololol.

You couldn't write this ****

 

precision entry, it's gonna happen 😉  

[Guest davidbrister]

38 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

@nit2wynit, notice that big green volume bar under where u circled?  that was its warning sign to stay away and wait and see what happens. Should have brought when the Macd crossed and rode it all the way down.
When i day traded, i only had 1 chart open, the AUS200 index, and i just concentrated on riding the waves, in and out, with out switching between heaps of charts, just to keep my focus.
 

 

[nit2wynit]

1 minute ago, davidbrister said:

 

David, the Long Red Candle before the long green was my Buy In.  There was No green.  In fact the MACD spread further apart, so I anticipated a further drop.

Then the Green Candle and full reversal.

I let it fail for the full 10pt stop.  -£50.

I'll get it back later today. Europe market very slow this morning.  US should bring some rewards.


 

[nit2wynit]

The Absolute Greatest Obstacle with IG (not specifically) and Spread Betting, especially on the Basic Retail Platform, is the sheer frustration and general Working Against You fundamental limitation of the ability to Search and Filter the Instruments by Price, %, Spread Size, or Even Open Markets.  Phone only.  Only available to close etc. etc.  Thousands of stocks in order of Alphabetical Order only.  

The Retail Platform is set up for Gamblers, not Fools.  Gamblers who just need to place a Bet, to get a Fix.

For the last hour, I've searched the entire European Market for anything that has moved in either 5% or more or 50pts or more.  I must click Every Single share only to find it's a 50pts spread, Only available by Phone, or Not available to Short.............................Tedious. 

It's designed to get you to Sub to Pro Real Time!!!

[FFS_Daytrader]

9 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

The Absolute Greatest Obstacle with IG (not specifically) and Spread Betting, especially on the Basic Retail Platform, is the sheer frustration and general Working Against You fundamental limitation of the ability to Search and Filter the Instruments by Price, %, Spread Size, or Even Open Markets.  Phone only.  Only available to close etc. etc.  Thousands of stocks in order of Alphabetical Order only.  

The Retail Platform is set up for Gamblers, not Fools.  Gamblers who just need to place a Bet, to get a Fix.

For the last hour, I've searched the entire European Market for anything that has moved in either 5% or more or 50pts or more.  I must click Every Single share only to find it's a 50pts spread, Only available by Phone, or Not available to Short.............................Tedious. 

It's designed to get you to Sub to Pro Real Time!!!

Agreed - I find "available by Phone, or Not available to Trade" its SO frustrating!

IG sometimes locks you out of trades when it knows the stocks are likely to be very liquid/volatile (and popular) and therefore forcing to to miss a scalping trade.

[nit2wynit]

Right peeps, I'm done for today.  All Trades below with a simulated 2k account using Maximum Margin.  1 trade at a time.

@dmedin we know it's the Demo, we know the risk, we know the Psychology is not the same.  The hardest part is finding decent setups to focus on.  Made 2 mistakes today.  The FTSE failed immediately so should have got out for -£15.  The Nutanix -£50 was a stupid mistake of not adjusting Stop Loss quick enough.

Have a great weekend folks.  Back on it next week.

Edited June 14, 2019 by nit2wynit

[nit2wynit]

35 minutes ago, TrendFollower said:

@nit2wynit,

Why not try trading as if it were a real account and apply the same stop loss strategy as you would in a live account?

Otherwise the information you are obtaining about your trading via the demo account will not reflect your trading via the live account information. 

Ideally, what you want to do is apply your trading strategy as you would in the live account on the demo account and really test its robustness. If there are any issues then you have the opportunity to fine tune it before you go live.

Just out of interest, what are the strongest trending shares at the moment? Of these which are the most liquid shares at the moment? Of these which have the highest volatility? Once you get the answer to these questions then may identify some very interesting shares to day trade for you. 👍

Yes this is what I will be doing next week.  What's more important to me is the Profit Loss ratio and not the amounts.  It would be foolish no .after how much I have to put 340 down to cover a Spread Bet.  It would clearly make more sense to buy and sell the shares instead of risking an immediate 340 on a trade.

[nit2wynit]

@TrendFollower I do use the same stop Loss strategy.  1:1.  I risk what I hope to take.  What will be different is the Stake itself.  My exercises to date are to show what is possible and to prove how many times i may be reading the charts correctly.  My learning and testing is happening in stages.

We'll see where I am by the end of the summer.

[Guest davidbrister]

i practiced on the demo for almost 12 months before my wife would let me play with real money, lol. i wish i had started using the live account sooner, as i built up a very strong demo account and thought i had this nutted out only to be raped in my first few days of live trading, it was bind blowing to say the least, and the biggest thing i learned is that the fear factor is almost zero using the demo, but the moment it becomes real wow total different set of emotions come into play. 

[Caseynotes]

This is a good article, 20 questions you need to be able to answer;

20 Questions For Help Building a Trading Plan

System

1. What type of trader will I be? Swing, trend trader, trend follower, day trader, Elliot Wave, Fibonacci, CAN SLIM, option trader, another, or a combination?
2. What time frame will I be trading on?
3. What are my trading rules?
4. What signals my entry?
5. What will signal my exit?
6. Do I use a trailing stop or a price target to lock in profits?
7. What will I be trading?
8. Will I trade long or short or both?
9. What is the probability of my trade working out based on historical data?
10. What has to happen to invalidate my trading system and make me look for flaws in my thinking?

Psychology

1. How big of a position size can I mentally and emotionally handle trading?
2. Does my chosen trading method fit my personality for activity and risk tolerance?
3. Do I truly believe that my method will work and be profitable?
4. Do I enjoy trading?
5. Do I have the mental strength to persevere until successful in trading?

Risk

1. How much of my trading capital will I risk per trade?
2. How many losses in a row with this level of risk will lead to blowing up my trading account?
3. How much will I lose at one time if all my open positions go against me at the same time?
4. How correlated with each other are all your open positions and your potential trading vehicles that are on your watch list?
5. Do you fully understand the potential risk in what you are trading?

http://www.newtraderu.com/2014/01/07/6072/

[dmedin]

In my experience, day trading is the quickest and easiest way to lose a LOT of money. 

 

[nit2wynit]

It certainly IS the quickest way to lose money, and also the quickest way to make it.  Lost this one though.

Lesson learned.  Stop Loss MUST cover Spread   5pt on this one.  Missed that.  Hit this 5pts early and reversed.

 

 

[dmedin]

I'm still losing money hand over fist with 'day trading'.

What a load of utter nonsense ... I guess it really IS for fools!

[dmedin]

2 hours ago, nit2wynit said:

It certainly IS the quickest way to lose money, and also the quickest way to make it.  Lost this one though.
 

 

You reckon you could make a living out of something this risky?  It all sounds a lot like BS to me.

[nit2wynit]

@dmedin providing I can keep my head on straight and handle the Fear, then sure.  I've no doubt.

I can consistently make profit on the demo.  I'm not really sure why people have such a hangup about it, other than what i have previously noted.  People think I'm using the Full amount and making profit is easy, but I use only 2k per time.

Why do you think you're struggling so much with it?
It's only risky if you're guessing.  1:1 Profit loss ratio.  Look for moves that are about 10-20 stops or more and take a few as it goes up or down.  Don't try and beat the breakouts.

I've obviously been following your posts.  This one especially, but you seem to have overdone you TA reading.  I look at the charts.  That's it.  I don't care for much else, unless there is News to accompany the trade.

I think you need a fresh education on it.

Don't get me wrong, I Lost today.  Technically I'm up, but then lost most of it.  It happens.  I'll be back on it tomorrow.

 I've turned on 'One Click' and accidentally closed the 1st trade but went straight back in for +£82.  Not the first time I've done this!

Total Profit today WOULD have been had I not closed the trade and only let the -£76 run to -£40  =+£90

If all anyone can say is, But it's the Demo, it's not real........then there's little else to talk about.

If I can master the Fear, then the strategy is working.

This will be the ultimate test moving forward.
 

[Caseynotes]

13 hours ago, Caseynotes said:

This is a good article, 20 questions you need to be able to answer;

20 Questions For Help Building a Trading Plan

System

1. What type of trader will I be? Swing, trend trader, trend follower, day trader, Elliot Wave, Fibonacci, CAN SLIM, option trader, another, or a combination?
2. What time frame will I be trading on?
3. What are my trading rules?
4. What signals my entry?
5. What will signal my exit?
6. Do I use a trailing stop or a price target to lock in profits?
7. What will I be trading?
8. Will I trade long or short or both?
9. What is the probability of my trade working out based on historical data?
10. What has to happen to invalidate my trading system and make me look for flaws in my thinking?

Psychology

1. How big of a position size can I mentally and emotionally handle trading?
2. Does my chosen trading method fit my personality for activity and risk tolerance?
3. Do I truly believe that my method will work and be profitable?
4. Do I enjoy trading?
5. Do I have the mental strength to persevere until successful in trading?

Risk

1. How much of my trading capital will I risk per trade?
2. How many losses in a row with this level of risk will lead to blowing up my trading account?
3. How much will I lose at one time if all my open positions go against me at the same time?
4. How correlated with each other are all your open positions and your potential trading vehicles that are on your watch list?
5. Do you fully understand the potential risk in what you are trading?

http://www.newtraderu.com/2014/01/07/6072/

Though the need for a trading plan and a trading strategy coupled with good basic money management has been repeated in near every trading book ever written since the dawn of time few actually seem to follow this advice.

The probable reason is likely because few seem to really understand what they are and so just repeat the mantra without actually doing it.

The strategy is the simple set of rules that govern every trade. The set up, the entry, managing the trade and then the exit. The same set of rules applied to every trade. You know what's going to happen before you even pull the trigger (you are going to follow the strategy's rules). You might have one, two or perhaps three different strategies but that should be your limit as a new trader. You know the strategy works because you have tested it, that's why you stick to the rules. 

The plan seeks to highlight before hand when and where one of your strategies might start setting up so it will consider chart structure, trends, levels, news events, when you need to be ready or resting, etc.

Without the construction and appliance of a tested scientific model you will just be shooting from the hip at shadows.