Jump to content

Is spread betting for fools?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, nit2wynit said:

Yes, Trend; technically I am still here also.  £1400 isn't a lot of money,  but it is a Limit I have applied to my learning curve.  My Issue is not with SB, but how it's not transferable to Breakouts on small caps; i.e my business model.  I find the Retail platform with IG a problem also.  I may re-discover SB on another platform and trade Indicies only.  The FTSE for Instance.

Thanks

 

I have a kind of toxic feeling in my head ... I think this might be addictive.

Losing large sums of money, with no hope of making it back, but keeping on doing it ...

Maybe it's wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, TrendFollower said:

Why not do it on indices on this platform? 

Trend, I'm not sure if you've tried other platforms.  The retail platform here is really bad for me.  I've commented on it since I joined back in March.  It's laggy, buggy, and I feel it's unreliable.

I've tried other platforms since and they are amazingly smooth and accurate.  I can only confirm there might be a problem with the 'New' platform as there are other instances since it went live going back a few years.  I've also conceded there may be an issue my end, but I've had no technical feedback from IG.  Hence my desire to look elsewhere.

My losses are to do with me alone.  But some are to do with the platform; or the problems I have directly related to it.

My learning is still active.  I was just lucky today finding the FTSE going down.  Too often i get in too early or at the wrong point.  But I can't go back to the demo; especially with IG.

On at least 3 other platforms i can drag the chart around in real time with zero lag.  I can't do this with IG.

Case in point; today I had a position open on the demo.  I had a stop at -£75.  I tried to move the chart around but it was lagging.  I accidentally moved the Stop position on the chart and created a Stop of -£150.  The minimum Stop was 12pts, so I had to wait for it to make sure it didn't drop further than my original stop.

Anyway.  I've left the Platform, not the forum, though I doubt I'll be adding much when i find a new one.

As a parting gift Trend, maybe you can offer a thought on what to do with only 1k?

Thanks
 

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, TrendFollower said:

. I trade using trend following and my positions are normally held for weeks if not months.

Trend......f you can hold positions for months.......then you have a considerable account size compared to mine m friend.

I've told you my account size from day one.  There's not a chance i hell i can afford to hold positions fro such a time.  The past month is testament to that alone.  Reversals into the hundreds!

Share this post


Link to post

@nit2wynit, sorry to hear you hit the limit but you're not the first and won't be the last to blow your first live account.

Plenty of lessons learnt I'm sure and time to start afresh. imho your plan to fast hit a slow market was ambitious and I'm not convinced the platform was the problem, I've said before that the demo platform is the same as live and that's basically true for normal markets but the demo won't reproduce a laggy market, it can't, and I suspect other broker's live platforms will also have problems finding prices on illiquid stocks.

You are right that a small account reduces options but the key is to learn the basics of trading first before trying to specialise.

Start from the bottom and learn the basics, the basics are finding entry points and targets on an average market on an average time frame and keep practicing and adjusting til you get it right, and I would do this on a simple platform that allowed very low bet sizes rather than a demo account.

So that would be something like trading the ftse on a 1 - 4 hour chart using 10 pence per point on the mt4 platform. So you're risking real money, enough to hurt your pride but not your account.

That should be where everyone starts but most never do, they always seem to start at the top and work their way down before starting over again from the bottom.

Anyway, we all look forward to round 2, best of luck.

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post

 

2 hours ago, Caseynotes said:

So that would be something like trading the ftse on a 1 - 4 hour chart using 10 pence per point on the mt4 platform. So you're risking real money, enough to hurt your pride but not your account.

I'm going to check out the MT4 platform too and DMA.  Seems I'll need to pay monthly for the privilege.

Round 2 to follow.

Thanks.
 

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

 

I'm going to check out the MT4 platform too and DMA.  Seems I'll need to pay monthly for the privilege.

Round 2 to follow.

Thanks.
 

That reminds me I wrote something about learning on mt4 and forgot to post it, let me find it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, TrendFollower said:

Of course you must decide what is best for your £1k but why not let it grow and build and investment portfolio and then use your profits from that to trade? That is what I do. 

Thats sounds like a plan to consider.  I have Pinterest.  they are up 50% so far.  I'm hoping for big returns in the future.

We spoke briefly in the past about tech and A.I.  I have about 5k for investing.

I'll see what is about and keep an eye on your posts.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
On 24/08/2019 at 11:56, Caseynotes said:

That reminds me I wrote something about learning on mt4 and forgot to post it, let me find it.

Morning  Casey, did you find your post? :D

My New New learning starts today.

I'm trying out CMC at the moment.  Their chart performance is well beyond IG's.

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Morning  Casey, did you find your post? :D

My New New learning starts today.

I'm trying out CMC at the moment.  Their chart performance is well beyond IG's.

yes I did, I started a new thread, see below. Best of luck, again.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, nit2wynit said:


My New New learning starts today.

 

 

Maybe one day you'll learn the ultimate lesson: that this is all fool's gold and there are a lot of people laughing behind your back for taking it seriously.

74% of punters get bent over and take it dry ... how you like them odds?

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, dmedin said:

Maybe one day you'll learn the ultimate lesson: that this is all fool's gold and there are a lot of people laughing behind your back for taking it seriously.

74% of punters get bent over and take it dry ... how you like them odds?

lol.  I'm starting to think you don't trust the game rules :D

I still believe i can do this.  Just need bigger stops smaller stake. as far as FTSE goes anyway.

Finding Breakouts is still my goal.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 29/08/2019 at 10:51, nit2wynit said:

lol.  I'm starting to think you don't trust the game rules :D

I still believe i can do this.  Just need bigger stops smaller stake. as far as FTSE goes anyway.

Finding Breakouts is still my goal.

 

JFC.  Why do I keep trying when I keep losing?  Do you think IG pays people to post encouragements on this forum?  A bit like how addicts can be triggered by references to their addiction?

Share this post


Link to post

Hi,

First of all @dmedin thanks for sharing your story as a trader it is always hard to admit losses!

I don't think spread betting is a fraud it is an instrument for short term investing and should be used as such.One thing I would recommend to anybody trading is to think critically.For example, if banks are manipulating the market you don't think your broker ids doing the same ?

I remember watching Bloomberg for hours and hours- You can't just follow "IG" or "Signals" from "instagram"  blindly. It is important to understand "the science of what makes the market move on a daily basis". Once you understand that you can trade sentiment- eventually you will create your own trading style and system.

In my opinion stocks are a big no when it comes to spread-betting because of the wide spread and low volume compared to forex. Like a boxer picks his punches  so must traders when they use spread betting(get in and get out), would love to tell you the instruments and hours we used to create algorithms to trade..... 

@dmedin trading is not easy and research pays off so best of luck hope you turn these losses around because all the great ones lost at the beginning but after careful and truthful analysis of where they went wrong

 

If you have not heard of Ray Dalio, I would read his book and thoughts like crazy!

 

Hope those losses turn around.

 

 

 

 

  • Great! 1
  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post

I haven't seen a single person prove that they can consistently make profits on forex or index trading.  That doesn't make it impossible (just like it is not impossible to make a living from playing poker).

I have however seen evidence that buying and holding a tracker fund (or even bonds) over a number of years generates consistent profits.  (Based on historical performance.)

Share this post


Link to post

 

@dmedin I would have to kindly disagree with you there as they are many traders at banks and hedge funds who have to make a consistent income stream out of trading FX in order to get their bonus. Now obviously these guys have access to a lot more data(I was part of the team that digested copious amounts of it into bite-sizable summaries)

 

But retail traders can be successful. I would be really interested in finding out your trading process and approach as well as your goals behind trading ?

The reason I ask is because above you mention "making income consistently" however I saw on another forum post that you were chasing a REVERSAL/BREAKOUT. So I think they might be a dislocation between your strategy and goals...............

 

@dmedin The Warren Buffet Buy & Hold is definitely  a proven winner. However I would consider that an investment rather then a  trading.

  • Great! 1

Share this post


Link to post
41 minutes ago, Zoryana said:

I would have to kindly disagree with you there as they are many traders at banks and hedge funds who have to make a consistent income stream out of trading FX in order to get their bonus. Now obviously these guys have access to a lot more data(I was part of the team that digested copious amounts of it into bite-sizable summaries)

Of course they do, they also have a huge pool of capital backing them so they can pick the safest possible trades and make huge profits from just a few pips' movement in their favour.

All of their trades get analysed to death before execution and four-eyes checked at every step.

The cleverest technical analysts get paid to provide guidance and don't trade their own money.  (They are not stupid or desperate enough to do that.)

Edited by dmedin

Share this post


Link to post

u can make a lot of money on consistent basis if u understand volume and gauging of pullback.......the pullback gauging with a final trap of big players is last step to enter for short term trading and wait for new new high or low to occur for quick trading...u can apply this in 30/5m chart....the only thing u need is a right mentor willing to teach you about how to gauge a pullback....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Market analysis is easy; timing is frustrating and difficult.  (John J Murphy)  No wonder the guy founded a training company to make his living instead.

I understand now why some interest rates are negative.  It encourages you to have a punt.  You'd have to be barking mad otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
On 31/08/2019 at 18:38, dmedin said:

 Do you think IG pays people to post encouragements on this forum? 

I am still new to all this considering I’ve not been trading even a year (part-time). But I understand where your frustration and pessimism comes from.

IG is a business, all businesses care for is their profit margin. No one on the internet and especially other traders are not your friends.

I started trading only one specific stock, one that I had been researching and investing in for years and I stuck with this until I learned more about technical analysis. This despite phone calls and emails from IG asking me whether I’d considered trading ‘other assets’. They still send me “news” emails, but I glance and move on. I’m not about to trade my hard earned wage on something unfamiliar to me, I know nothing about forex, so I stay out. I only trade one thing at a time. 

I’ve seen your posts on Greggs, Boeing etc, but by the time this news is in the public domain, the big players have cashed out.

Of course jump on for the ride if another 737 crashes etc, but in the interim stick with what you know and you’ll profit consistently.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, ha05230 said:

No one on the internet and especially other traders are not your friends.

This sounds like a statement about society and life in general ... however ... there are plenty of people offering to let you into their members-only discussion forums or mailing lists for a fee.  Why anyone would pay such a fee without seeing clear evidence of the benefits of it is a mystery to me.

The guarded nature of traders (absolute and total unwillingness to prove that they are anything more than bullsh1tters and con artists) already makes me distrust them.

I've just been chucking some money around in desperation.  The idea of having to work a day job for another 40 years before retiring is terrifying.  Might as well blow it and then go and jump off a cliff!

Share this post


Link to post

@ha05230 one asset approach is the correct approach that was a really wise move. Once your trading one asset you can start to see patterns of how everything else effects that assets e.g oil,Trump, value of the USD. Your building the correct foundations.

 

@dmedin may I ask what you think you need to be successful ? As everyone has been providing you tips for awhile now but you are off-hand discounting every one of them...Trading can be learnt, you just need patience, I was lucky enough to of worked at a bank but all the traders there taught themselves using free resources and a good foundation- you have to start small and scale. Please don't start trading thinking you can replace your day job....that takes screen time and experience  

 

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 31/08/2019 at 20:28, dmedin said:

I have however seen evidence that buying and holding a tracker fund (or even bonds) over a number of years generates consistent profits.  (Based on historical performance.)

Interesting simple ma crossover strategy beats 'buy and hold' on back test.

http://www.newtraderu.com/2019/09/02/a-simple-trend-following-system/

image.png.794b053208b33eb11d6faa86c4040adb.png

 

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post

I dunno ... trading looks and sounds good in theory but in reality you have to resist the temptation to trade 99 times out of 100.  Unless you are omnipotent (or an algorithm) you often miss the good opportunities.  Resisting the temptation to take on **** trades is beyond the capability of mere mortals.

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, dmedin said:

I dunno ... trading looks and sounds good in theory but in reality you have to resist the temptation to trade 99 times out of 100.  Unless you are omnipotent (or an algorithm) you often miss the good opportunities.  Resisting the temptation to take on **** trades is beyond the capability of mere mortals.

how simple would the rules need to be before you would actually obey them? I mean for the above system you need only look at the chart once a day after market close and see if 2 lines had crossed  sheeez, you must have noticed you are up and down like a yoyo, throughout the day it's 'go long', 'no go short', 'no long' and that's on a daily chart lol.

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

how simple would the rules need to be before you would actually obey them? I mean for the above system you need only look at the chart once a day after market close and see if 2 lines had crossed  sheeez, you must have noticed you are up and down like a yoyo, throughout the day it's 'go long', 'no go short', 'no long' and that's on a daily chart lol.

 

If I was being disciplined and limited my trades I could probably make a very small but steady profit, but I find it too enjoyable and ending up losing a lot.

Share this post


Link to post

Uh yes, have you not seen any of my posts.  The 5-20-50 on a M15 with volume filter is a very good method, as is H1 VWMA for stocks.  Fibos, weeklies and monthlies as filters, candlesticks for entry and exit points etc.

Edited by dmedin
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 31/08/2019 at 18:38, dmedin said:

JFC.  Why do I keep trying when I keep losing?  Do you think IG pays people to post encouragements on this forum?  A bit like how addicts can be triggered by references to their addiction?

Despite the wealth of advice in this forum, it's only when i started taking it that i started losing it all.  Let me explain.

Like I've said from the start, I want to Day Trade.  In and Out in seconds or minutes.  To do this I need a few things in place, which I've not at all done.   I need a Pre Market Scanner,  Volume, Access to L2/DMA and Hot keys.  I need to be able to trade Small Cap Stock.  None of the advice I've ever been given, has been to do with Day Trading and trading Breakouts.  Despite the un-countable amount of traders around the world doing it, the advice in here has always been to stay away.  Have you looked into it?  How to Trade Breakouts?   It is possible to do on here, but not with Small Cap.   For instance, Dell had a small spike on Friday I think.  Using the demo I had to search thru the entire US catalogue to find something that was moving Pre Market. (not at all easy to do on here) I risked £50 of Stop at the first pullback, and got out for a quick £100.  took seconds.  The trick is your consistency, not your Stop.  If you can get it right 

NONE of these things are available with IG, and the way Spread Betting works NONE of the small cap stock are available to me to trade in the manner above.  So, from Day 1 with IG (not specifically-Spread betting) I've been doomed.  I have no way to filter the thousands of Stocks on show.  It's tedius and frustrating.  I'm guessing 95% of the UK Small Caps aren't available to trade on.  There are no Not Keys that allow me instant in and out actions.  This retail platform is unreliable for me.

Almost every stock on the move here is Un-vailable to Trade.  It's like Breakouts are a No-No on purpose; of course it makes sense.  If I'd been successful in finding them, Filtering them and correctly anticipating them, then I would have never lost a trade.  How does IG make money?  Thru my frustration of not being able to find a decent trade, so end up taking a Punt on some no volume slow moving stock that has a spread so large I could fall in it.

But here's the thing.  A hot rock is just a hot rock.  Being mad at it cos you picked it up and it burnt your fingers is a lesson in futility.  You need to know how to handle it.  This is the advice that comes from here most often, it's just a little vague.

It would have been great if from the start everyone had said to me, 'Oh you want to trade Breakouts?  It's not a good idea with SpreadBetting as most of the small cap stock is un-available.  You'll really need L2/DMA and Pre Market Scanner and hotkeys for that.  Maybe trade stock directly instead and pay a monthly to get access to realtime charts L2/DMA etc.'.................because for 2 months prior to joining IG this is what I was learning.

Of course Spread Betting works.  But it's no good for Day Traders with small accounts looking for small cap stock.



 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Look at this chart @dmedin  I wasn't able to find it quickly enough.  For a £50 stop at R1 1st pullback on the 5M, there's around £700 in this move!

The problem is finding them!

 

dmedin example.jpg

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×