Jump to content

Is spread betting for fools?

Recommended Posts

On 29/08/2019 at 10:51, nit2wynit said:

lol.  I'm starting to think you don't trust the game rules :D

I still believe i can do this.  Just need bigger stops smaller stake. as far as FTSE goes anyway.

Finding Breakouts is still my goal.

 

JFC.  Why do I keep trying when I keep losing?  Do you think IG pays people to post encouragements on this forum?  A bit like how addicts can be triggered by references to their addiction?

Share this post


Link to post

Hi,

First of all @dmedin thanks for sharing your story as a trader it is always hard to admit losses!

I don't think spread betting is a fraud it is an instrument for short term investing and should be used as such.One thing I would recommend to anybody trading is to think critically.For example, if banks are manipulating the market you don't think your broker ids doing the same ?

I remember watching Bloomberg for hours and hours- You can't just follow "IG" or "Signals" from "instagram"  blindly. It is important to understand "the science of what makes the market move on a daily basis". Once you understand that you can trade sentiment- eventually you will create your own trading style and system.

In my opinion stocks are a big no when it comes to spread-betting because of the wide spread and low volume compared to forex. Like a boxer picks his punches  so must traders when they use spread betting(get in and get out), would love to tell you the instruments and hours we used to create algorithms to trade..... 

@dmedin trading is not easy and research pays off so best of luck hope you turn these losses around because all the great ones lost at the beginning but after careful and truthful analysis of where they went wrong

 

If you have not heard of Ray Dalio, I would read his book and thoughts like crazy!

 

Hope those losses turn around.

 

 

 

 

  • Great! 1
  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post

I haven't seen a single person prove that they can consistently make profits on forex or index trading.  That doesn't make it impossible (just like it is not impossible to make a living from playing poker).

I have however seen evidence that buying and holding a tracker fund (or even bonds) over a number of years generates consistent profits.  (Based on historical performance.)

Share this post


Link to post

 

@dmedin I would have to kindly disagree with you there as they are many traders at banks and hedge funds who have to make a consistent income stream out of trading FX in order to get their bonus. Now obviously these guys have access to a lot more data(I was part of the team that digested copious amounts of it into bite-sizable summaries)

 

But retail traders can be successful. I would be really interested in finding out your trading process and approach as well as your goals behind trading ?

The reason I ask is because above you mention "making income consistently" however I saw on another forum post that you were chasing a REVERSAL/BREAKOUT. So I think they might be a dislocation between your strategy and goals...............

 

@dmedin The Warren Buffet Buy & Hold is definitely  a proven winner. However I would consider that an investment rather then a  trading.

  • Great! 1

Share this post


Link to post

@Zoryana,

First of all, welcome to the IG Community. I agree with most of what you have advised in your two posts above. The only thing I disagree with is with wishing best of luck and hope that he succeeds. The words 'Hope' and 'Luck' are more appropriate for gambling than trading. If you have to rely on luck and hope then you are in trouble when it comes to trading. 

I agree with the buying and holding from an investment perspective. I am an investor first and a trader second. I have been investing for many years and have been buying and holding, buying on large corrections, large drops and consistently buying using 'cost pound averaging' has served me rather well. I only make lump sum investments during recessions, large drops, corrections or times of crisis, uncertainty and panic. Otherwise I invest religiously every month. 

Trading is a different animal altogether and spread betting is a different beast. I have documented my thoughts on the title of this topic in this thread on a few occasions (feel free to read them if you wish) so I will not repeat it again. 

Welcome and look forward to discussing and engaging in the future.👍

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Zoryana said:

I would have to kindly disagree with you there as they are many traders at banks and hedge funds who have to make a consistent income stream out of trading FX in order to get their bonus. Now obviously these guys have access to a lot more data(I was part of the team that digested copious amounts of it into bite-sizable summaries)

Of course they do, they also have a huge pool of capital backing them so they can pick the safest possible trades and make huge profits from just a few pips' movement in their favour.

All of their trades get analysed to death before execution and four-eyes checked at every step.

The cleverest technical analysts get paid to provide guidance and don't trade their own money.  (They are not stupid or desperate enough to do that.)

Edited by dmedin

Share this post


Link to post

u can make a lot of money on consistent basis if u understand volume and gauging of pullback.......the pullback gauging with a final trap of big players is last step to enter for short term trading and wait for new new high or low to occur for quick trading...u can apply this in 30/5m chart....the only thing u need is a right mentor willing to teach you about how to gauge a pullback....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Market analysis is easy; timing is frustrating and difficult.  (John J Murphy)  No wonder the guy founded a training company to make his living instead.

I understand now why some interest rates are negative.  It encourages you to have a punt.  You'd have to be barking mad otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
On 31/08/2019 at 18:38, dmedin said:

 Do you think IG pays people to post encouragements on this forum? 

I am still new to all this considering I’ve not been trading even a year (part-time). But I understand where your frustration and pessimism comes from.

IG is a business, all businesses care for is their profit margin. No one on the internet and especially other traders are not your friends.

I started trading only one specific stock, one that I had been researching and investing in for years and I stuck with this until I learned more about technical analysis. This despite phone calls and emails from IG asking me whether I’d considered trading ‘other assets’. They still send me “news” emails, but I glance and move on. I’m not about to trade my hard earned wage on something unfamiliar to me, I know nothing about forex, so I stay out. I only trade one thing at a time. 

I’ve seen your posts on Greggs, Boeing etc, but by the time this news is in the public domain, the big players have cashed out.

Of course jump on for the ride if another 737 crashes etc, but in the interim stick with what you know and you’ll profit consistently.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, ha05230 said:

No one on the internet and especially other traders are not your friends.

This sounds like a statement about society and life in general ... however ... there are plenty of people offering to let you into their members-only discussion forums or mailing lists for a fee.  Why anyone would pay such a fee without seeing clear evidence of the benefits of it is a mystery to me.

The guarded nature of traders (absolute and total unwillingness to prove that they are anything more than bullsh1tters and con artists) already makes me distrust them.

I've just been chucking some money around in desperation.  The idea of having to work a day job for another 40 years before retiring is terrifying.  Might as well blow it and then go and jump off a cliff!

Share this post


Link to post

@ha05230 one asset approach is the correct approach that was a really wise move. Once your trading one asset you can start to see patterns of how everything else effects that assets e.g oil,Trump, value of the USD. Your building the correct foundations.

 

@dmedin may I ask what you think you need to be successful ? As everyone has been providing you tips for awhile now but you are off-hand discounting every one of them...Trading can be learnt, you just need patience, I was lucky enough to of worked at a bank but all the traders there taught themselves using free resources and a good foundation- you have to start small and scale. Please don't start trading thinking you can replace your day job....that takes screen time and experience  

 

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post

@Zoryana,

I agree. I work full time and invest in start ups along with actively managing my investment portfolio. Trading is only a small part of what I do and you must have trading goals which are realistic and achievable. 

I know my time limitations so trend following suits my personal circumstances and personality. Also I agree mostly with the principles though I have tweaked some of them to suit my aims and objectives. This is where a trading plan comes in.

In your trading plan you should detail why you are going to use Spread Betting to meet your trading goals? 

Share this post


Link to post
On 31/08/2019 at 20:28, dmedin said:

I have however seen evidence that buying and holding a tracker fund (or even bonds) over a number of years generates consistent profits.  (Based on historical performance.)

Interesting simple ma crossover strategy beats 'buy and hold' on back test.

http://www.newtraderu.com/2019/09/02/a-simple-trend-following-system/

image.png.794b053208b33eb11d6faa86c4040adb.png

 

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post

I dunno ... trading looks and sounds good in theory but in reality you have to resist the temptation to trade 99 times out of 100.  Unless you are omnipotent (or an algorithm) you often miss the good opportunities.  Resisting the temptation to take on **** trades is beyond the capability of mere mortals.

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, dmedin said:

I dunno ... trading looks and sounds good in theory but in reality you have to resist the temptation to trade 99 times out of 100.  Unless you are omnipotent (or an algorithm) you often miss the good opportunities.  Resisting the temptation to take on **** trades is beyond the capability of mere mortals.

how simple would the rules need to be before you would actually obey them? I mean for the above system you need only look at the chart once a day after market close and see if 2 lines had crossed  sheeez, you must have noticed you are up and down like a yoyo, throughout the day it's 'go long', 'no go short', 'no long' and that's on a daily chart lol.

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

how simple would the rules need to be before you would actually obey them? I mean for the above system you need only look at the chart once a day after market close and see if 2 lines had crossed  sheeez, you must have noticed you are up and down like a yoyo, throughout the day it's 'go long', 'no go short', 'no long' and that's on a daily chart lol.

 

If I was being disciplined and limited my trades I could probably make a very small but steady profit, but I find it too enjoyable and ending up losing a lot.

Share this post


Link to post

Uh yes, have you not seen any of my posts.  The 5-20-50 on a M15 with volume filter is a very good method, as is H1 VWMA for stocks.  Fibos, weeklies and monthlies as filters, candlesticks for entry and exit points etc.

Edited by dmedin
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 31/08/2019 at 18:38, dmedin said:

JFC.  Why do I keep trying when I keep losing?  Do you think IG pays people to post encouragements on this forum?  A bit like how addicts can be triggered by references to their addiction?

Despite the wealth of advice in this forum, it's only when i started taking it that i started losing it all.  Let me explain.

Like I've said from the start, I want to Day Trade.  In and Out in seconds or minutes.  To do this I need a few things in place, which I've not at all done.   I need a Pre Market Scanner,  Volume, Access to L2/DMA and Hot keys.  I need to be able to trade Small Cap Stock.  None of the advice I've ever been given, has been to do with Day Trading and trading Breakouts.  Despite the un-countable amount of traders around the world doing it, the advice in here has always been to stay away.  Have you looked into it?  How to Trade Breakouts?   It is possible to do on here, but not with Small Cap.   For instance, Dell had a small spike on Friday I think.  Using the demo I had to search thru the entire US catalogue to find something that was moving Pre Market. (not at all easy to do on here) I risked £50 of Stop at the first pullback, and got out for a quick £100.  took seconds.  The trick is your consistency, not your Stop.  If you can get it right 

NONE of these things are available with IG, and the way Spread Betting works NONE of the small cap stock are available to me to trade in the manner above.  So, from Day 1 with IG (not specifically-Spread betting) I've been doomed.  I have no way to filter the thousands of Stocks on show.  It's tedius and frustrating.  I'm guessing 95% of the UK Small Caps aren't available to trade on.  There are no Not Keys that allow me instant in and out actions.  This retail platform is unreliable for me.

Almost every stock on the move here is Un-vailable to Trade.  It's like Breakouts are a No-No on purpose; of course it makes sense.  If I'd been successful in finding them, Filtering them and correctly anticipating them, then I would have never lost a trade.  How does IG make money?  Thru my frustration of not being able to find a decent trade, so end up taking a Punt on some no volume slow moving stock that has a spread so large I could fall in it.

But here's the thing.  A hot rock is just a hot rock.  Being mad at it cos you picked it up and it burnt your fingers is a lesson in futility.  You need to know how to handle it.  This is the advice that comes from here most often, it's just a little vague.

It would have been great if from the start everyone had said to me, 'Oh you want to trade Breakouts?  It's not a good idea with SpreadBetting as most of the small cap stock is un-available.  You'll really need L2/DMA and Pre Market Scanner and hotkeys for that.  Maybe trade stock directly instead and pay a monthly to get access to realtime charts L2/DMA etc.'.................because for 2 months prior to joining IG this is what I was learning.

Of course Spread Betting works.  But it's no good for Day Traders with small accounts looking for small cap stock.



 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Look at this chart @dmedin  I wasn't able to find it quickly enough.  For a £50 stop at R1 1st pullback on the 5M, there's around £700 in this move!

The problem is finding them!

 

dmedin example.jpg

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Despite the wealth of advice in this forum, it's only when i started taking it that i started losing it all.  Let me explain.

err, hate to be the one to remind you but when you joined the forum back in April this was the sort of stuff you were posting, losing all the time, that's why people started offering advice in the first place.

image.thumb.png.5d98cb7d5730e6d3d7c05c8805fe136c.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Look at this chart @dmedin  I wasn't able to find it quickly enough.  For a £50 stop at R1 1st pullback on the 5M, there's around £700 in this move!

The problem is finding them!

 

dmedin example.jpg

It sounds like you need an automated scanner to find such opportunities. IG Index has an API which can be used to build applications, if you can define the "rules" which identify such opportunities then a system could be built which could be constantly monitoring various markets and alert you when your rules are met.

I can't see how you could ever trade like this without some automated help.

 

  • Thought provoking 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

err, hate to be the one to remind you but when you joined the forum back in April this was the sort of stuff you were posting, losing all the time, that's why people started offering advice in the first place.

image.thumb.png.5d98cb7d5730e6d3d7c05c8805fe136c.png

Casey............................................

In relation to Spread Betting!

It's not personal.


I don't know why you feel the need to keep coming back to 'Trip Me Up'...

you won't get me pal.  It's not a game.  it's not a con. I'm not trying to Ruin your Good name.!


Spread Betting doesn't work with regard to my Goals from the start.  Its taken me far to long to realise this.

Edited by nit2wynit

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, andysinclair said:

It sounds like you need an automated scanner to find such opportunities. IG Index has an API which can be used to build applications, if you can define the "rules" which identify such opportunities then a system could be built which could be constantly monitoring various markets and alert you when your rules are met.

I can't see how you could ever trade like this without some automated help.

Indeed.  It's been a long journey for it to finally sink in.  Spread Betting was never in my Action Plan.  I've tried to make it work and failed.  I've been trying to fit the round peg in the square hole for far too long.

I've no Idea what IG Index or API is so I'll look into it.  Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post

In fact @Caseynotes I'll do my very best here to clear it all up for you in fine detail so we can avoid this moving forward.  It's repetitive.

I was as green as fresh grass when I started back in March, but what I had been studying was Breakouts, or more specifically, the Buying and Selling of Shares below £5 on News or a Catalyst, where I could trade in seconds or minutes and take profits of 1:1 or better.  where i would trade on the 1m 5m and buy the 1st pullback and sell the rise.  At the time I didn't know we had Spread betting in the UK, so as I discovered the Demo platforms of several of the UK providers, I put my time to working out how to use them.  My immediate goal was to understand the charts and the platform specifically.  After a good success rate on the Demo, I decided I needed to go Live to see the real world difference in time between placing a trade and exiting.  It is here where i lost my way.  I had abandoned my Trading Plan in lieu of proving success or recovering losses.  At the point you reference above, I hadn't realised that my strategy was not suitable to slow moving chart patterns that would go up and down, hence my Shallow Stops where I'd make profit and give it away again.  Still it took 3 weeks to lose £400, but you must understand it wasn't a simple case of me Losing EVERY trade.  I made back £250 in one day!, only to lose it all over the following week.   However, I left to Buy Pinterest shares at the point of being down £400.  I must stress that I was up and down in profit at this point, but on a downward trajectory.

I was not adhering to my Trading Plan as stated above; Finding and Trading Breakouts!  I was trying to apply the same principles to Spread Betting on Slow Moving Targets.  It didn't work.  At the point of me seeking advice, I had already lost £200 but couldn't figure out why.  This resulted in a downward spiraling fear that never left me.  The advice given wasn't how to trade Breakouts effectively, but how to manage a small account and apply it to Spread Betting. i.e small stake, larger stops.  But that was never my Goal!  

So when I say the advice I was given didn't suit my Goal, I hope you can see where I'm coming from.


Spread Betting hasn't beat me.  IG hasn't Beat Me.  I have failed to understand that trading breakouts on Small Cap stock, is very difficult with Spread Betting.  It's not rocket science!  But it has been a necessary learning curve.


The advice I've received here has been invaluable as I have stated in the the past and most recently, but it has never been the advice toward my Goal.  Day Trading Breakouts.

I have continued to try and adjust my Strategy to the likes of Indicies and FX, but I've not applied the necessary Stops etc. to make it work as it's never been my Goal.

I thank you again for your time and help but try not to take it so personally.  This is my journey and my story.  It's relevant to me only.  You have just been here to witness the ride.  It's not necessary for you to save/search/scour my posts for messages I posted about my own journey and experience, in order to validate your input.  Relax.  You're not on trail.


Can you show a real time stream of a Day Trade of small cap with a small account using IG and the Retail Platform?

If you can I could have done with the info back in April.  If you can't then you're giving me advice on how You trade, not how I and thousands of other people around the world want to.

 

Share this post


Link to post

@nit2wynit, actually you put us on trial when you said you only started losing when you started taking advice from other forum users. You were losing money when you came onto the forum as your early posts show, you told us that you were literally throwing up because of the anxiety caused by the size of risk you were taking on with a such a small account (£170/point) and the advice was don't bet so big, simple so far but not the solution you were looking for as the goal was to learn how to earn a living trading off a small account there and then before you blew the account. And then your account blew up. That's more or less it.

Share this post


Link to post
On 02/09/2019 at 00:29, dmedin said:

This sounds like a statement about society and life in general ... however ... there are plenty of people offering to let you into their members-only discussion forums or mailing lists for a fee.  Why anyone would pay such a fee without seeing clear evidence of the benefits of it is a mystery to me.

Did you ever look into Warrior Trading/Ross Cameron on YT?  (Among others.)  These people Find and Trade breakouts.  

He has thousands of students around the world and each day, Live on YT he talks you thru his Watchlist of Gappers etc.  Then the following Day, he does a recap of Gains or Losses.  Yeah it's about making money for him.  so what.  Everything is.  you go to work it's about selling your time to your employer; you have value and what you know or do has value.  Therefore in this world, sell your info.....

However, I've not been able to follow as the stocks he uses are not available with IG..!

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

actually you put us on trial when you said you only started losing when you started taking advice from other forum users.

Oh I didn't think he meant that :(

It's just that the SB approach is different from the method Americans use, where they are actually dealing in leveraged shares rather than derivatives.  (That can be enormously risky)

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

@nit2wynit, actually you put us on trial when you said you only started losing when you started taking advice from other forum users. You were losing money when you came onto the forum as your early posts show, you told us that you were literally throwing up because of the anxiety caused by the size of risk you were taking on with a such a small account (£170/point) and the advice was don't bet so big, simple so far but not the solution you were looking for as the goal was to learn how to earn a living trading off a small account there and then before you blew the account. And then your account blew up. That's more or less it.

**** me Casey........Take a **** break lad!

What do you think you know when you've asked no questions????

I know you're going for the 'Star Contributor Badge and Hat' ensemble but Jeeesus man........

I can't begin to explain the psychological preference for you to take what i say personally and now you're trying to get everyone else involved in it to back you up by suggesting i've put EVERYONE  on Trail.  Make your own case lad..  Try not to only pick out of the conversation that suits your personal grievance.

The advice given was never about Day Trading small Cap Stock.

Can you prove it?  End of!


Oh and @Caseynotes the £170 pp was the Demo... Guess you missed that detail in your quest to be Forum Champion!

Edited by nit2wynit

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Member Statistics

    • Total Topics
      7,772
    • Total Posts
      40,526
    • Total Members
      50,920
    Newest Member
    KRY
    Joined 20/11/19 11:26
  • Posts

    • A demo account should work the same as live, otherwise it is misleading.
    • Hey,  The demo leveraged account will work in the same way however there are some issues on the demo account because we test on there to make sure the live account runs as smoothly as possible.  Unfortunately, as mentioned before, we don't offer demo for portfolios but you can find the performance information here. Say you wanted to see the data back from 31st July 2014, you can go back and see the performance since that time: https://www.ig.com/uk/investments/smart-portfolios/performance Thanks for your post. I will get this looked into so going forward this does not happen.   
    • @Trevbeats, Yes I do trade but I am an investor first and then a trader. I trade from the U.K. 
×
×