Is spread betting for fools?

[nit2wynit 213]

3 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

PRT doesn't show you your balance. But PL shows via Trading -> open positions

Looks something like the below (if you're down £30 on the day  )

 

WTF!  How the **** can you trade??  I've no idea what margin requirement is until I add a number to the ticket, then what?  get a calculator out and work out my next figure?  Jeeez.  This can't be for real?  Surely the basics are your fecking balance lol.


I can't even load a chart now.    I'm becoming paranoid this is a real conspiracy against me.  I've been getting error messages like this since day one, but the chart usually loads within a few seconds.  Now I can't get anything.

 

 

[DSchenk 141]

Agree, it's far from ideal.

I went a bit creative and built myself a tool which is hooked in via the API provided by IG for that purpose.

That calculates margin requirements, deal sizes, shows overall balance, PnL, etc.

Would start with the calculator - then go from there  

[nit2wynit 213]

hmmm.  Now all I have available is this??? No demo platform.....Feel like I'm about to be shown the door.  If you don't hear from me, I've been booted out.

 

 

[nit2wynit 213]

[DSchenk 141]

Lol, nit2wynit. That happens when you make too much profit, the spread bet provider can't afford you anymore

 

So, just to conclude my recap of the day as well .

I traded 2 tickers: AXAS and DNR

Both gap-and-go set-ups.

AXAS popped up, then consolidated around $6.6. I went in on a flag pattern, which turned out to be a false breakout. Stopped out.

DNR. Popped up then shot down again. Was first stopped out. Then re-entry at bottom and still holding that position now. Let's see if it's gonna be a late burner. See potential to go until $1.80 if it breaks $1.60 (which doesn't seem likely at the moment)

 

All in all, I have to say, the US open is not that much of a difference to the UK open.

Spreads are still far too high to realistically make a profit. Most of the tickers which are really moving are restricted by IG to trade, some only on the short side, but still a significant amount.

Besides, my Level 2 didn't show any data, although I purchased the streams. All I could see was Level 1 data. Not sure why that is, will check tomorrow again. Maybe there's a delay in the permission system or so.

For scanning pre-market I used Trade Ideas (same as Ross Cameron from Warrior Trading is using). Demo account is sufficient. https://www.trade-ideas.com/

Might go back to focus on trading the FTSE100 index as seems to have a higher chance of success there. (Although also not made any profits there yet, lol - what can I say, trading is hard)

[nit2wynit 213]

15 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

Spreads are still far too high to realistically make a profit

UPDATE:  Partial Outtage on Demo accounts.


erm.....you need to find better stocks to trade

I posted a few last week that were only 2 3 or 4 points of spread.  to me this isn't a lot.  I risk 5 or 10% of my balance when looking to trade.

I'm going to take a look at DNR to see what you had in mind.  I had it on my Watchlist too, but couldn't find a way in.

Plus you posted earlier you're scanner is for £10 movers?  that's quite large to me.  I consider anything from 3% up.  Max $20, but can go higher.  Plot resistance or previous day high on 1D chart and see if it has room to do.

Let me take a closer look at what you've done today and get back to you on it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by nit2wynit

[nit2wynit 213]

What I was waiting for but clearly problems with Demo.  I'm done for today now.  Nothing Lost nothing gained.  That's good

 

[DSchenk 141]

Yep, the "Too early stay clear" caught me out

Just saying, with a spread of 2% and moves of 5%-10%, the math doesn't add up for me.
The move is only 2.5-5 times the spread.

On the FTSE100 index you have a spread of 0.02% with moves between 0.5% and 1%.
That's moves of 25-50 times the spread which is 10 times better than on the stocks.

Appreciate, there are still 1 out of 100 stocks which then move 50-100% on the day, which makes the math even to the index. But you still have the issue of a) finding that stock quick enough to get a good entry and b) IG not blocking you from trading that stock. Difficult outset if you ask me

[nit2wynit 213]

2 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

On the FTSE100 index you have a spread of 0.02% with moves between 0.5% and 1%.

You can defo make money on FTSE but you're limited to your account size.  For instance, £2 per point with less than 1k on margin, where the average for the DAY might only be about 50 points.  That's an entire day to make £100 or less, unless you ride the waves.  The thing with the FTSE or any Indicies is the amount you need to ride it.  Most people say Go Long, but it will usually go up 5 come back 3 go up 5 come back 3.  To me, each one of those directions is an In and Out profit.   I used to look for SR points and Reversals and had some wins, but I'd take it where I could with a 1:1 ratio.  If I could get it right, I'd ride a consolidation area going up and down.  

But with shares we can capitalise on small moves big profits.    Whatever I do now I still only play for 1:1 or 1:2 profit and put my stops as tight as possible.  What you've done there with DNR is what i used to do.  That wasn't a sound play that i know you know.  You're not supposed to ride it right off the bell.  :O

Find either the 1st red on 1M or 5M.  Only when the 1st green candle breaks the previous Red on the pullback do you risk and Buy In.  Otherwise you need to wait for New High after the previous Spike.  Either way I don't think DNR was a good bet today.  It had a high of 160 and i think I'd have got out as soon as it started turning red on the reversal.

 

[DSchenk 141]

Also just checked what Ross traded today: YUMA

IG restricted, so not possible to trade.

However, even if it was possible, this is the move where Ross made 500 bucks (1min chart btw - he only traded for 4 minutes today)

The total range here is from 606 to 649, that's a 7% move.

However, the spread currently is at 2.6%, probably way higher during the market open, I assume around 4-5%.

Meaning there's little chance you would've made any profits on that move, even with perfect entry and exits. Lucky if you would've just made the spread back

[nit2wynit 213]

This was a Live trading day in July.  I've mentioned it recently. (thought it was the FTSE)

From when i started watching till I stopped it was worth about £20 if I went Long.  But i got in for small profits up and down on the way up.  total of about £50 with £16 loss.  So made £35 riding it instead of £20 Long.  Too much effort for too little reward.

This is the only limit of going Long with a small account.  There's no potential to Day trade Indicies unless you have a large account and can go large PPP.

[nit2wynit 213]

5 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

Also just checked what Ross traded today: YUMA

Yea YUMA has popped up in the past with Ross but as you now know it's not available to trade.  There's loads of stock to be traded though that don't have massive spreads.  My plan is to put them to a list that I can keep going back to.

Edited September 16, 2019 by nit2wynit

[nit2wynit 213]

8 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

Also just checked what Ross traded today: YUMA

IG restricted, so not possible to trade.

However, even if it was possible, this is the move where Ross made 500 bucks (1min chart btw - he only traded for 4 minutes today)

The total range here is from 606 to 649, that's a 7% move.

However, the spread currently is at 2.6%, probably way higher during the market open, I assume around 4-5%.

Meaning there's little chance you would've made any profits on that move, even with perfect entry and exits. Lucky if you would've just made the spread back

I wouldn't have touched Yuma today anyway.  Most of the Breakouts I've witnessed lately that start with a Red candle often (not always) have gone south.  This was possibly over traded last week.

[dmedin 651]

5 hours ago, nit2wynit said:

What I was waiting for but clearly problems with Demo.  I'm done for today now.  Nothing Lost nothing gained.  That's good
 

 

This is an entry signal to go long:

[Caseynotes 2,593]

[nit2wynit 213]

11 hours ago, dmedin said:

 

This is an entry signal to go long:

Ordinarily Yes, that would be the Buy In (more technically the next large green to the right of it) but based on the 1st Red I would personally wait for a New High in the area.  The chart actually hit 162 and reversed anyway.

Edited September 17, 2019 by nit2wynit

[DSchenk 141]

Motley Fool released this article yesterday: https://www.fool.co.uk/investing/2019/09/16/tempted-by-day-trading-heres-why-you-shouldnt-bother/

Tempted by day trading? Here’s why you shouldn’t bother

In short:

From a sample of almost 20,000 people, they found that the proportion of successful day traders fell as the number of days they traded increased. In other words, people became worse at trading the more often they did it. 

The researchers then focused on the 1,551 individuals who continued to trade in the equities futures market for more than 300 days. Based on the data, only a minute proportion (0.4%) earned more than a typical bank teller in Brazil in a day ($54) with the best-performing individual taking home $310. A staggering 97% of this sub-group lost money. 

 

Is spread betting for fools?  

[nit2wynit 213]

6 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

Motley Fool released this article yesterday: https://www.fool.co.uk/investing/2019/09/16/tempted-by-day-trading-heres-why-you-shouldnt-bother/

Tempted by day trading? Here’s why you shouldn’t bother

In short:

From a sample of almost 20,000 people, they found that the proportion of successful day traders fell as the number of days they traded increased. In other words, people became worse at trading the more often they did it. 

The researchers then focused on the 1,551 individuals who continued to trade in the equities futures market for more than 300 days. Based on the data, only a minute proportion (0.4%) earned more than a typical bank teller in Brazil in a day ($54) with the best-performing individual taking home $310. A staggering 97% of this sub-group lost money. 

 

Is spread betting for fools?  

Well 


I know why I lost.  Add this to the statistic of Noobs who quit early and this probably makes up most of the statistic of losses.

Defo over trading relates to losses; likely for several reasons.  For instance, the longer you trade the more time has passed therefore the potential for trades to slow or become erratic i.e Lunch, News, or Aliens ate my homework....

If you do the same thing and expect different results you are a fool (Einstein-not word for word)

You are also aware of why your DNS trade failed off the bell yesterday.  Let's take it back to page one and see how we do moving forward?  I'm still struggling with PRT and it's videos.  I still haven't figured out how to place a trade on the charts. :O


Statistically out of myself, dmedin and you, we're Losers lol.   But until we know WHY, then it will continue to happen.  We have to have faith in our knowledge, conviction in out decisions and courage to let them run or fail.

How I have traded is with impatience, ignorance, naivety, callousness, confusion, lack of discipline, FOMO and on the odd occasion platform issues.

85.46% of Statistics are made up

 

[Caseynotes 2,593]

29 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

Motley Fool released this article yesterday: https://www.fool.co.uk/investing/2019/09/16/tempted-by-day-trading-heres-why-you-shouldnt-bother/

Tempted by day trading? Here’s why you shouldn’t bother

In short:

From a sample of almost 20,000 people, they found that the proportion of successful day traders fell as the number of days they traded increased. In other words, people became worse at trading the more often they did it. 

The researchers then focused on the 1,551 individuals who continued to trade in the equities futures market for more than 300 days. Based on the data, only a minute proportion (0.4%) earned more than a typical bank teller in Brazil in a day ($54) with the best-performing individual taking home $310. A staggering 97% of this sub-group lost money. 

 

Is spread betting for fools?  

I read this research paper last week and it really doesn't say anything new. New traders lose, and it didn't offer anything constructive though who would want to trade Brazilian equity futures anyway 

Not too many business startups make a profit in their first year, take Ocado for instance  🙂

[nit2wynit 213]

Wow!  Both 5M......

 

[Caseynotes 2,593]

22 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Wow!  Both 5M......

 

but what is it actually telling you though, besides that 3 different platforms are filling in gaps differently on a illiquid stock.

[nit2wynit 213]

3 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

but what is it actually telling you though, besides that 3 different platforms are filling in gaps differently on a illiquid stock.

Well, it's telling of a few things I guess.  This a screenshot of both charts at the same time.  The prices are different and so are the Price positions (though I'm not sure what PRT is showing Bid Ask Mid)

The disparity between both charts is enough to see anyway isn't it?  What am I actually trading?  

[nit2wynit 213]

What am I failing to grasp here with PRT?  No Balance on screen etc. as you place a trade,  Cost only revealed when you actually open a ticket.  Trying to amend a stop take 3 clicks; move it, Validate it, only to be told is has a minimum Stop which will change by the time you've gone back to the chart.  How do i set a Stop and Limit before I place it?

Afraid the ease of the retail might have made me lazy.

[nit2wynit 213]

12 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

but what is it actually telling you though, besides that 3 different platforms are filling in gaps differently on a illiquid stock.

I'm not actually trading I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate and use PRT.  So far it seems, counter intuitive.

[Caseynotes 2,593]

 

14 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

The disparity between both charts is enough to see anyway isn't it?  What am I actually trading?

the Tradingview chart is the same 5min chart but none of the charts are the market, just a approximate graphical representation of the market, a gap might be represented as a blank space or a solid candle. 

There are differences as to all platform construction, some are build with an emphasis on dealing while others the emphasis is on charting. The IG web based platform is the former (and used by both retail and professional traders alike) while PRT and Tradingview are more tuned to charting.

Either way you are trading the market.

[nit2wynit 213]

2 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

Either way you are trading the market.

Yes, but if there are differences between charts, and lets say one has more info than the other, then can we assume one might be showing the Future of the chart, even if it's only seconds, can it be deemed a. reliable. b. profitable to make use of several platforms to trade? (specifically Day Trading and Scalping- In and out in seconds)  If so then it can also be deemed that if it can be profitable, then it can be un-profitable too?  The prices are different on both charts.  These are running side by side in real time, albeit the Demo.

How can a trade be placed if the information is different?  But it's OK Casey.  I was merely pointing out the difference between the information in the chart.  They're both IG.  PRT offers faster updates chart info.....but so far, it takes longer to place a trade.

Back to the manual for me.  Thanks.

[dmedin 651]

1 hour ago, Caseynotes said:

Not too many business startups make a profit in their first year, take Ocado for instance  🙂

Playing ****'s advocate here - at least Ocado produces something of worth.  (Plant, machinery, goods, provides jobs and a valuable service i.e. food delivery etc.)

Comparing some bloke starting up day trading with some savings to a small business doesn't really cut it.

And yes, I 100% agree that it is virtually impossible to make a living from day trading.  I would LIKE to believe that it's possible to make more than a 2% return by trading (this is what you'd get if you put it into the most generous savings account available today), but so far even that looks dubious.

[dmedin 651]

59 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Afraid the ease of the retail might have made me lazy.

 

PRT's design is absolutely hideous.

[Caseynotes 2,593]

7 minutes ago, dmedin said:

Playing ****'s advocate here - at least Ocado produces something of worth.  (Plant, machinery, goods, provides jobs and a valuable service i.e. food delivery etc.)

Comparing some bloke starting up day trading with some savings to a small business doesn't really cut it.

And yes, I 100% agree that it is virtually impossible to make a living from day trading.  I would LIKE to believe that it's possible to make more than a 2% return by trading (this is what you'd get if you put it into the most generous savings account available today), but so far even that looks dubious.

"Ocado makes first full-year profit in its 15-year history" (2015) 🙄

And yes, as the study points out, it's virtually impossible to make a living day trading in the first year with no training other than reading 'TA for Dummies' over the weekend.

 

 

[nit2wynit 213]

Just now, dmedin said:

PRT's design is absolutely hideous.

No ****!  There's no way to trade quickly like on the Web platform.