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Is spread betting for fools?

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Sorry to hear you're struggeling nit2wynit.

To answer your question. PRT doesn't show if a stock is restricted by IG or not. You find out if you place an order and it will tell you. Or you do it how I am doing it and check it via the IG API. Or I guess you can also check it in the browser platform, although that's quite a manual process.

Other than that not sure why you are having issues with the stop. Are you placing the stop automatically the same time you enter the trade? Or are you placing the trade and afterwards placing stop and limit?

As mentioned before, the US stocks seem to be a bit odd. I had struggles sometimes with the stop as well. They seem to need to be quite large compared to UK stocks.

 

In regards to adjusting the screener based upon IGs limits. I don't think there are any specific limits. I guess there's some sort of risk management team, which manually restricts "hot" stocks. Why they are doing this in the first place - don't know. My guess is still this is profitability management on IG side. If there was a ticker running 200% on a day and everybody goes long and makes 3x their account deposit in profits, then worst case IG need to pay everyone their money if they request it.

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12 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

In regards to adjusting the screener based upon IGs limits. I don't think there are any specific limits. I guess there's some sort of risk management team, which manually restricts "hot" stocks. Why they are doing this in the first place - don't know. My guess is still this is profitability management on IG side. If there was a ticker running 200% on a day and everybody goes long and makes 3x their account deposit in profits, then worst case IG need to pay everyone their money if they request it.

I'm going to assume this is the case.

As for me being able to place a trade FML Big Time.....WTActual F....................

I think I know why but still don't know how to remedy it.  I've been ticking the SL top right next to the ticket and putting in 10 as in 10pt Stop (if the Spread is 4 I double it and add half, so in this case 10).  Turns out on Shares it works in % not points. I don't **** know to be honest.  This is a huge waste of my time so far.  What a **** joke it is.  How **** hard does it need to be ffs?

I managed to place a trade earlier by unticking the SL boxes, but then I can't work out how to Add a Stop or Limit to the chart........Some of the videos are out of date too so following them is a pain.

**** bad day today...Bad Day.  :(  I need a drink!

 

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However, using the built in scanner you may have noticed these or missed them.

Greenlane Holdings.
Stemline Therap
PG&E Corp

I wasn't actually trading today,  just placing what I could to see how PRT works.  However, here's what could have happened with a 1k account.  Take note, I wasn't trying to Win.  Just punting to get a feel for it.

 

Sample PRT.jpg

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26 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

**** bad day today...Bad Day.  :(  I need a drink!

Seems like most days are bad days when one is 'day trading'

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15 minutes ago, dmedin said:

Seems like most days are bad days when one is 'day trading'

Not bad in losses, bad in learning.  **** me I can't figure this PRT out!!  Where't the Dummies Handbook?? lol

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56 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

Not bad in losses, bad in learning.  **** me I can't figure this PRT out!!  Where't the Dummies Handbook?? lol

lol it's a nightmare to use.  There's a manual somewhere but it isn't that helpful :D

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What's the difference between spread betting and a 2% savings account?

The savings account makes you money, spread betting loses you thousands.

 

:D

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@dmedin,

What if the inflation rate was say 3% then do you think the savings account would still make you money in real terms?

Spread betting only loses you thousands if you trade thousands without a 'Trading Plan', 'Trading Strategy' and a 'Trading System'

If you use an inefficient trading system to trade using Spread Betting then I am afraid it is not the platform which offers the Spread Betting facilities fault but the traders fault. Just like it is the gamblers fault for betting on a horse when they know very little about horse racing or betting on a football match when they don't really follow or know much about football. 

Spread Betting is merely a tool which one can use in their trading armoury amongst many other tools like CFD's, like Futures, like Trading Accounts, etc.

What you would not want to do is give a Doctor a spanner to use in an operation and give a Mechanic a scalpel.  If a Doctor decides to use a spanner in an operation and the patient dies or the operation is not successful then is it the spanners fault or the Doctors fault for clearly using the spanner? Also there may be certain operations where a spanner could be used just like there may be certain times when a Mechanic could use a scalpel but it is making the correct decision on when to use them which is key. 

If you are using the wrong trading strategy on spread betting then you will lose more times than you win. I feel like a parrot but unless you are trading the strongest trending assets at any given period in the direction (not against) the trend then you are really going to struggle with using spread betting. 

Traders must accept they are to blame when making incorrect, inefficient and inaccurate trading decisions rather than blame other factors. It is the trader which decides to use spread betting and makes that decision. When I make a loss on a trade, it is not IG's fault or the Spread Betting's fault. It is my fault for a wrong trade execution. I decide the parameters for my trading. I decide the entry and exit points not the spread betting platform. 

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49 minutes ago, TrendFollower said:

If you are using the wrong trading strategy on spread betting

Trend! for the love of all that is Good.......Can't you see the rhetoric???

He's basically asking you or anybody....What is the Best Trading Strategy for Spread betting?????  as he keeps losing............!  Show him how to do it, don't criticise how he's doing it and offer no alternative.

Please please don't say....Well that's for you to work out.......That is a Cop Out.

I say this with the upmost respect for your knowledge;  Either Teach or Preach.    There is too much rhetoric and hindsight info on this forum and always from the same people.

@dmedin.  I will show you how to make money here.  But I need to know how much you have, how much you want to make per day.  It's **** easy; if you can afford the RISK, Financially and Emotionally.


I will prove 10 trades with whatever account size you have.  I will show at least 50/50 on wins.  In fact, I already have.

With a 1k account I was up 25% as of Wednesday last week after 2 days Trading.  It was only the Demo you say?

OK.  So I offer ANYONE else here paying attention, a Task.  Use the Demo and grow your account from 1k.  and if you're so sure of your knowledge and wisdom, PROVE it Live.

How hard can it be?

Edited by nit2wynit
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5 hours ago, dmedin said:

Seems like most days are bad days when one is 'day trading'

I just want to echo on this a little  Day Trading vs......What?  Investing?  Buying Shares?  Long term Goals? Crossing the Road?

They ALL carry Risk.  Pinpoint what you want to achieve, how much you are willing to risk to achieve it and we'll go from there.

I know it's hypocritical for me to be giving advice, but the entire exercise is Psychological....It's nothing else.

It's about what is in front of you,  how you perceive it and  how you perceive it will dictate how you approach it and how you approach it will determine the outcome; based on certain variables.

If you want to make £1000 per day and only have £500; It's possible, but you must have high accuracy and risk it all each time.  you must also find the perfect Stock with the perfect Setup.  You must conquer your fears and risk Little to make Big.

You nailed it with JD Sports.  you got it.  you found the Breakout.......but you didn't Risk enough therefore you didn't Capitalise enough.


I've told you I know why I've lost.  Can you say the same?

Edited by nit2wynit

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How's this for another reason to have doubt?  Same Time frame, Same time side by side.  What have I done wrong?

 

Any answers.jpg

Edited by nit2wynit

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@nit2wynit,

I have shared live trades and potential trade ideas on the IG Community. 

If @dmedin keeps on losing money then he must stop doing what he is doing. Now I agree with you that those that preach should prove they 1) actually trade and 2) make profits consistently year after year. I totally agree with you and have had this battle with two particular individuals on the IG Community. They have given me the line that I am looking for someone to show me because I don't know what I am doing, etc. I do not have a clue, etc. 

Now I have actually shared live trades on IG Community. I got a lot of stick and abuse for doing so from certain people. 

So @dmedin,

In my personal opinion the best trading strategy for Spread Betting some form of 'Trend Following'. Now this could feature trading 'Breakouts' and identifying the 'Strongest Trending Assets'.  This would be based on price action, volume and the sharpness of any move upwards or downwards. It would involve going long or short depending on the strongest trending asset's direction. 

Best spread betting strategies and tips

https://www.ig.com/uk/trading-strategies/best-spread-betting-strategies-and-tips-190524

Now what IG has produced and provided (above) is actually quite good. 

Also do not overtrade. This is something I am seeing a lot. A need to trade when there is no need. I am not the following:

  • Day Trader
  • Frequent Trader
  • Even Weekly Trader

My positions are held for months unless I am wrong in which case my stop loss will have executed my exit. I do not trade on a regular basis. I think this is one of the mistakes that traders make. Some people who day trade feel they have to place a trade on a particular day because they have decided to day trade. If the set up is not right, the conditions are not right then you risk losing on that trade. This is exactly what we are seeing on the IG Community. 

If you are making loss after loss then why day trade or even trade frequently? Take a step back and choose and pick your trades wisely. This will help your confidence and also increase your percentage in terms of winning trades which should lead to an increase in profitable trades. 

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7 hours ago, nit2wynit said:

How's this for another reason to have doubt?  Same Time frame, Same time side by side.  What have I done wrong?

The only thing you've done wrong is put up the charts for 2 different companies, PG&E Corp and PCG Entertainment.

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43 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

The only thing you've done wrong is put up the charts for 2 different companies, PG&E Corp and PCG Entertainment.

Also the right one is not a DFB, but has an expiration (sep-19). Don't trade that, trade the DFB

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Guest phil
2 hours ago, Caseynotes said:

The only thing you've done wrong is put up the charts for 2 different companies, PG&E Corp and PCG Entertainment.

:D HA

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2 hours ago, Caseynotes said:

The only thing you've done wrong is put up the charts for 2 different companies, PG&E Corp and PCG Entertainment.

No he didnt

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2 minutes ago, Mark27000 said:

No he didnt

yes, you are right, they are both PG&E Corp, one is cash (dfb) and the other is the futures.

this had me fooled >

image.png.c263dff1ea9418167d453b1b2342176c.png

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34 minutes ago, Caseynotes said:

yes, you are right, they are both PG&E Corp, one is cash (dfb) and the other is the futures.

this had me fooled >

image.png.c263dff1ea9418167d453b1b2342176c.png

hahaha.  Yeah.....**** me hahah Thanks. :D

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4 hours ago, TrendFollower said:

If @dmedin keeps on losing money then he must stop doing what he is doing.

Most of us by statistic are losing money.  That's what this entire thread is about.

Day Trading comes up a lot in the discussion.  I myself Day Trade.

Can you show us how to Day Trade @TrendFollower?  We all know we need a plan, risk management, discipline etc.  We know the pre-requisites.  But still can't make it work.......

Can you show us how to Day Trade?  Not Tell Us.  Can you show us how much you need to hold positions for months?

The minimum account balance is £250 I think.  How would you trade it?

Thanks for taking the time once again.  You will never receive abuse from me, but may suffer a Red Wine attack from time to time. :D

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The problem is that simply picking a strategy isn't going to stop you losing money.  It just helps you to lose less money.

The studies are out - 97% of people fail miserably.

 

WTF are we doing?!

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@nit2wynit,

I cannot show you how to day trade as I do not day trade myself. I thought I made that clear in my previous post.

If you hold positions for months then you are not day trading. I hope that is clear. 😀

In terms of how much you need? Well I could give you any figure, how would you confirm it is right or wrong? The reality is that you need enough capital to cover your margin requirements and some more. This all depends on what assets you are trading as the margin requirements on Bonds is far greater than margin requirements for say Gold. The margin requirements range for Cryptocurrencies and are quite reasonable for indices. I do not trade FX. 

It does not matter if you are trading small amounts or large amounts but I would suggest trading initially the minimum margin requirements until you can demonstrate a profitable trading system. 

Try selecting something which is trending strongly and has lower margin requirements and don’t day trade and just hold the position until the trend changes. In terms of overnight costs they will be the bare minimum if you are trading based on the lowest margin requirements and this will vary depending on what you are trading. Just make sure you keep enough capital to cover your daily overnight charges. 

Make sure you set stop losses so that if you are wrong and the price trends in the opposite direction then you are out. 

I am intrigued if the ‘know it alls’ and ‘experts’ with lots of knowledge and who are hardly ever wrong share their live trades with you and show you how it is done. 🤔

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OK so I don't know if I can anything of value here, but it's an interesting thread and I'd like to be involved somewhat.

I day trade full time and am comfortable with my returns.  My simple view is that spreadbetting is for short term trading only; it is too expensive to hold overnight positions for very long.

You do need a develop a strategy (which works of course!) and you must stick to it through thick and thin. I have traded for many, many years in various forms and has SB accounts since 2003 during which I have had varying degrees of success. However for the last few years I have settled on what I consider a pretty simple approach which I have stuck to - and it works for me at least. 

Basically I no longer trade individual stocks, FX or commodities anymore (of course I've tried them all).  I only trade indices, and every trade is hedged with another index.   I only trade FTSE, DAX, CAC, DJIA ('Wall Street'), NASDAQ ('US Tech 100'). The UK and European indices are only traded against one another, and the US indices are only traded against one another. 

So if I want to trade FTSE long I will only do that with a short on DAX or CAC and vice versa. Similarly DJ is only ever traded with a hedge against NAS. The trades are effectively identical in size in opposite directions so for example right now FTSE is trading at 7356/57 whilst DAX at 12452/53.  Therefore if I place a trade right now I would trade the ratio 1.7:1 respectively if that makes sense. Yes, the approach will limit returns, of course, because I will invariably take a loss on one and a gain on the other, but I rarely see a big loss and I do have other strategies for dealing with the issue before the end of the session if the overall position is showing a loss.

The thing which will make people laugh is that my exit strategy is not very robust - in fact it does not exist - if when I come back to the screen the trades are in profit I will either close the loser and add a trailing stop to the winner or close both trades. If not I either wait or possibly place other trades if I am still confident that my original view still applies. 

I like this approach because I don't have to do much research, and anytime of the day is practical to trade this strategy.

Now I'm not posting this because you should do the same, but it may give you food for thought?  The issue (as with all SB I guess) is that if you don't have professional trading status then your margin requirements are big and restrictive if you don't have much capital.

 

 

 

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@BigDeal,

1 hour ago, BigDeal said:

My simple view is that spreadbetting is for short term trading only; it is too expensive to hold overnight positions for very long.

Thanks for your input. Very much appreciated. I would disagree because I personally think that Spread Betting is only too expensive to hold overnight positions for very long if your is trade is wrong and the trade is going against you. For this reason your stop loss would have executed and you would not be in the position so you would not be paying overnight charges. The only inference I can make to your sentence is that you are assuming that someone who is using Spread Betting is not using stop losses?

Now just think if you are trading one of the strongest trending assets whether it be the German Bund, Gold, Bitcoin, US indices, etc. You are using leverage and you are trading in the direction of the strong trend. Even with overnight costs as long as your trade is right, the profits using leverage far outweigh the costs. I can only assume you are think it is expensive because you are looking at losing positions. But even if you are looking at losing positions if you have a trading style which requires cutting your losses short then the overnight charges should be minimal because of your stop losses being executed. 

So if you have a position where you are holding for weeks and months and paying overnight costs daily it means that your trade is making you profits and your trade is successful and right. Every day that goes by and you pay overnight charges it means the trade is moving with the strong trending action. Of course there may be days in between where it goes against you but overall the trade is moving in your favour. I accept there will be days here and there where you pay overnight costs but in general the trade is going well. 

For this reason I disagree with your sentence based on my personal experience. Yes using Spread Betting as a tool is extremely challenging. There is no doubt about that. Also this tool is not effective for all trading styles. I accept that. 

2 hours ago, BigDeal said:

Basically I no longer trade individual stocks, FX or commodities anymore

What if the assets you do not trade like FX, Commodities, Cryptocurrencies, Bonds, Stocks are all trending stronger than the indices you are trading? In terms of 'odds and probability' trading the strongest trending assets at a given time you are increasing your chances of success and being profitable. By trading the strongest trending assets you are tilting the odds and probability in your favour.

 

2 hours ago, BigDeal said:

The thing which will make people laugh is that my exit strategy is not very robust - in fact it does not exist - if when I come back to the screen the trades are in profit I will either close the loser and add a trailing stop to the winner or close both trades. If not I either wait or possibly place other trades if I am still confident that my original view still applies. 

Effective setting of stop losses is a very important part of 'Risk Management'. Knowing your exit price even before you enter the trade is crucial to 'Trend Following Principles' which I follow but I accept that you do not. 

Just like you need money to invest in a property or money to invest in art, expensive jewellery or classic cars, you need capital when looking to trade. Capital is an important requirement and protecting that capital at all costs is crucial as without it you cannot trade regardless of whether you have a small or large amount of capital. This is where effective risk management comes in. If you have that then you will have a 'robust exit plan'.

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12 hours ago, TrendFollower said:

Betting is only too expensive to hold overnight positions for very long if your is trade is wrong and the trade is going against you.

not clear on why someone with a bet of 10, 50 or 100 contracts would be happy paying hundreds of pounds every night for months on end in overnight funding charges when forwards or futures markets, where you don't pay any at all, were designed specifically for the task.

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1 hour ago, Caseynotes said:

not clear on why someone with a bet of 10, 50 or 100 contracts would be happy paying hundreds of pounds every night for months on end in overnight funding charges when forwards or futures markets, where you don't pay any at all, were designed specifically for the task.

He posted the same thing the other day and I commented under it saying this place was comedy gold (which has now vanished) ..My comment was based on what  you have said, why would you be paying out daily charges when you dont need to.

Like I said comedy gold ,10 millions posts  and doesnt even trade at all 

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Note to Self:  Look into Futures. ^^^ They come up a lot in covo's.

Potential here maybe.  Dropped from +£60 while I took a screen shot to make this post, but it's OK it's the Demo.  The important part is I found it.  Oooh where's it going?  £68 risk on this.  I would have taken the £60 normally but it's Friday so I've left it.  
 

 





 

NKT.jpg

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@Caseynotes and @Mark27000,

Spread Betting is a tax efficient way of trading. Your profits are free from UK Capital Gains Tax and there is no needs to disclose or include in your UK Self Assessment Tax Return. Imagine if you were a day trader and a profitable one you would have to ensure that you declared, included and paid the correct tax at the correct time and this would be your responsibility. Yes you can hire an accountant but there will be a cost to that. Yes there is accounting and tax software but you still have to input all the details. Spread Betting makes is seamless and less hassle. It is easier in my opinion when limited time is available. I am an investor first and foremost and trading is only a very small part of what I do. 

Now in terms of paying overnight charges. If you are a profitable trader using leverage then the overnight charges will be coming out of your profits (leveraged). 

With spread betting you do not have clearing fees, the costs associated per contract (futures), paying for a terminal every month. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both but the real advantage of spread betting is the tax efficiency. I love it. The disadvantage is the costs via the spreads and overnight charges. Each trader has to weigh up (based on their personal circumstances) which is better for them. 

Trend Trading Futures contracts is not tax efficient. Yes it may be cheaper due to no or little overnight charges but the tax you have to pay on your profits, each trader will have to work out the math and see which option is better for them. 

On spread betting the overnight charges are the costs of being able to carry over a leveraged position. It is the privilege to do so and of course there will be a cost to doing this as after all if you make lots of profits then it is free from tax so you get to keep all of it. Futures will have the 'cost' built into the spread so they will be wider. 

So yes you have no 'overnight' charges as such but those costs will be built and factored into the spread. 

I am not going to get involved in an argument over which is better as that is a personal and individual choice. I have chosen Spread Betting for my particular circumstances and situation. I do not need permission or any agreement from you guys. I am not sure why I am bothering here as I do not even trade according to @Mark27000.

Futures contracts are designed for longer term trades but the spreads will be wider thus avoiding overnight charges.

If it is not for you and you do not want to pay the overnight charges then that is fine. If you do not understand why I pay overnight charges then fine. There is nothing more I wish to add, say or disclose on the IG Community. 

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11 minutes ago, TrendFollower said:

@Caseynotes and @Mark27000,

Spread Betting is a tax efficient way of trading. Your profits are free from UK Capital Gains Tax and there is no needs to disclose or include in your UK Self Assessment Tax Return. Imagine if you were a day trader and a profitable one you would have to ensure that you declared, included and paid the correct tax at the correct time and this would be your responsibility. Yes you can hire an accountant but there will be a cost to that. Yes there is accounting and tax software but you still have to input all the details. Spread Betting makes is seamless and less hassle. It is easier in my opinion when limited time is available. I am an investor first and foremost and trading is only a very small part of what I do. 

Now in terms of paying overnight charges. If you are a profitable trader using leverage then the overnight charges will be coming out of your profits (leveraged). 

With spread betting you do not have clearing fees, the costs associated per contract (futures), paying for a terminal every month. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both but the real advantage of spread betting is the tax efficiency. I love it. The disadvantage is the costs via the spreads and overnight charges. Each trader has to weigh up (based on their personal circumstances) which is better for them. 

Trend Trading Futures contracts is not tax efficient. Yes it may be cheaper due to no or little overnight charges but the tax you have to pay on your profits, each trader will have to work out the math and see which option is better for them. 

On spread betting the overnight charges are the costs of being able to carry over a leveraged position. It is the privilege to do so and of course there will be a cost to doing this as after all if you make lots of profits then it is free from tax so you get to keep all of it. Futures will have the 'cost' built into the spread so they will be wider. 

So yes you have no 'overnight' charges as such but those costs will be built and factored into the spread. 

I am not going to get involved in an argument over which is better as that is a personal and individual choice. I have chosen Spread Betting for my particular circumstances and situation. I do not need permission or any agreement from you guys. I am not sure why I am bothering here as I do not even trade according to @Mark27000.

Futures contracts are designed for longer term trades but the spreads will be wider thus avoiding overnight charges.

If it is not for you and you do not want to pay the overnight charges then that is fine. If you do not understand why I pay overnight charges then fine. There is nothing more I wish to add, say or disclose on the IG Community. 

The more you type the more you prove what I said

Nobody said anything about spreadbetting ...You said you pay an overnight charge while holding your trade for weeks or months.You obviously buy or sell a DFB instead of the futures contract ....Even if you are spreadbetting you can do this...The fact that you dont know this  tends to show you dont actually trade and if by chance you do,then you havent a clue 

I await your 1000 word response of twaddle

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