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Holy Grail


AbDXB1345

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Hi All,

Just curious, with over 48,000 members on the IG community forum, are there any traders out there that trade for a living i.e. primary source of income.

Obviously this is the dream of most traders, but just interested to know if any of the community are living the dream.

Cheers

 

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36 minutes ago, TrendFollower said:

For example, if I have trading capital of £1m and make 10% profits consistently per annum then that is far greater than an extremely knowledgeable trader with a better trading system who has trading capital of £100,000 and makes 20% profits consistently per annum.

Surely the second trader is the better trader though?

The amount of equity in your account has no correlation whatsoever with your trading expertise?

I know some Arabs who have £1m+ in their accounts, cause their Daddys got lucky enough to own an oil rig. Doesn't mean they are good traders though.

% gain is more important than absolute gains

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@DSchenk I think @TrendFollower has a point though, how would you define that one is better than the other? On their win rate, percentage profit every year or actual annual profit value. 

A trader that makes 30% profit off of a 10,000 account would surely rather be making 10% off of a 100,000 account?

My goal is to slowly but surely build my account size so that someday I can live off of the 10% annual profit, with hopefully lower risk and much lower time input (extra time = more fishing time!)

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you need to be a bit skeptical @AbDXB1345 about what  turns up on forums because over time you will come to realise there's usually an awful lot of hot air. For example someone might repeatedly boast they have been successfully trading commodities off the daily chart for years but all the while you've known they don't even understand how the platform works so it's just not possible.

You will also find there are those who constantly insult to provoke in order to get someone to reveal the 'holy grail' cause of success in spite of the fact there isn't one. It's a long road and there don't seem to be any shortcuts but searching for them is often the thing many spend most of their time doing.

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Agree, that very few retail traders can make enough money trading where everything is stacked against you, l invest 95% of my money in long term stocks/shares which pay dividends (thats where the income comes from) , trading IG is a great place to hedge your positions, take the odd short term opportunity  etc, trying to live off it is un- likely.

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@Caseynotes forums are the perfect place for Catfish...

I guess all I am dying to see is someone post a comment saying "Hi there, yes, I trade for a living and make my annual income predominantly from trading and investing". I guess that comment in itself in the Holy Grail... probably out there but unlikely to be found¬†ūüėĄ

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47 minutes ago, AbDXB1345 said:

how would you define that one is better than the other? On their win rate, percentage profit every year or actual annual profit value. 

I would define it by % growth of account size, not absolute value

Absolute value only tells how much cash someone has at their disposal to put into a trading account

If someone manages to turn £10k into £1m and hence makes £0.99m in profits, I find that more impressive than the billionaire who has £20m in their account and manages to grow that by 10% and profits £2m.

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2 minutes ago, AbDXB1345 said:

@Caseynotes forums are the perfect place for Catfish...

I guess all I am dying to see is someone post a comment saying "Hi there, yes, I trade for a living and make my annual income predominantly from trading and investing". I guess that comment in itself in the Holy Grail... probably out there but unlikely to be found¬†ūüėĄ

As has been pointed out in other threads, the only people who claim success seem to be the hot air balloonists or those that are selling something (courses, mentoring etc) but why is that? Looked at from the other end what's to be gained by coming forward, besides the harassment, the nagging, the begging and the insults I mean.

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9 minutes ago, DSchenk said:

I would define it by % growth of account size, not absolute value

Absolute value only tells how much cash someone has at their disposal to put into a trading account

If someone manages to turn £10k into £1m and hence makes £0.99m in profits, I find that more impressive than the billionaire who has £20m in their account and manages to grow that by 10% and profits £2m.

you're absolutly right

plus compound growth on higher percentages will be unbelievable over the longer term.

win rates and % ROI is king. Anyone else who things otherwise is quite frankly wrong.

Put another way - who would Goldman hire?

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1 minute ago, dmedin said:

The only thing I can think of is that coming forward (i.e. showing evidence) would give some people greater confidence in subscribing to/paying for that person's newsletters, forums, etc.

I guarantee you all, if I crack this in the future and show you my account, I too will be charging for the Info; seems I'm becoming like everyone else.  I would never keep secrets and good ideas to myself.  I'm a sharer.  I have nothing at all to lose by giving info away, but everything to gain If I can sell a profitable idea.  It's the way of the world.  I'm confused why this is often debated.  When you go to work, you have a value.  you sell your time skills and knowledge to your Boss so he can make profit.  There's absolutely No difference at all in selling Info.

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To add to above ^^

Even now I have Knowledge and Value I didn't have at the start, but most of all experience and a greater respect for The Game, but it's difficult to teach experience.  This is something you need to acquire for yourself.  It's too often said of people that 'They won't be told'- but there's a reason for this.  We must Learn for ourselves.  The only difference btween a good student or bad teacher, is the ability to effectivelt Teach and the ability to Learn.  They are symbiotic. 
If I was to have a mentor from day one, in the room with me that explicitly told me not to bet high, not to stay too long and play for 1:1 Profit Ratio; to use a scanner, to not over trade, to not chase Reversals on the 1H,  To check Daily Pivot Points, plot S/R points and make sure I understand my Stop Distance vs Reward/Risk,  I'd be in a better place.  This is all valuable Info.  But if you're **** at marketing, then you won't be able to sell it on.

Edited by nit2wynit
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@AbDXB1345, a few of thoughts for you:

  • I imagine few retail traders can give up the day job with the stats as they are, for me I use it as a means to grow capital in a world where normal investment seems too risky, but then that is the root of my bearish bias - well documented and oft criticised, sometimes with malice
  • If someone posts on this site they offer you their opinion and views for free.¬† They may have errors in their thinking and even in their technical expertise/experience.¬† We would all be better off if we stuck to what we really know.¬† However you will also notice that there are some on the forum who seem to pounce on these errors with glee, which to me is a poor response to someone offering their thoughts freely.¬† Why not simply respectfully point out the error, I'm sure the poster would appreciate that more than being castigated.¬† I believe this is why we have so few active posters on the forum (BTW, I am probably guilty of this in the past but seek to avoid it now)
  • The better way to measure success in a forum discussion is via points gained or loss.¬† This equalises the relative size of the account.¬† The better trader is the one who makes the most points at the end of a period, period!¬† Clearly one needs a sufficiently sizable account to trade for a living BUT trading for a living is not like a salary-mans job.¬† You cannot expect a regular daily/weekly/monthly income.¬† It will be very lumpy.¬† Most of the truly successful traders will tell you that thy make most of their gains from fewer than 5% of their trades.

Make of that what you will, it was given freely and in good faith...

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@AbDXB1345, forgot to mention the most important point.  Regardless of how frequently you post or whether you post or not at all on the forum or even access the forum (I know several traders who avoid it like the plague because of Troll like behavours that are sometimes exhibited) and regardless of the size of your account you first need a solid system that you follow mechanically (and therefore trust).  You must do this without overlaying personal emotional feelings about what a particular market might do or not and ignoring comments that others make, especially negative criticism, of your system if you do post.  You must see positive points gains over an extended period of time, some have posted recently, and I believe correctly, that this could take upwards of 5 years to crack.  You must have control of your own emotions and not lay the blame for your losses at nefarious actions but squarely on yourself.  You must ensure you understand why you lost and have a learning loop (like a Deming quality cycle - Plan, Do, Check, Act).  You must not put unjustified pressure on yourself to make money fast.  In short, if you want to trade for a living (i.e. make a profession out of it) you need to act professionally and treat it as a business.  Few successful traders (or businessmen) are successful from day one and most require a lot of failure and training/mentoring to learn to be successful int he long run.  The only people who could claim to trade for a lining, consistently and successfully, have done all of this and earned the right to be successful by putting in the hard yards.

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If you are willing to put up with five years of losses (when you could have made money simply by buying and holding some well known stocks or ETFs, or just putting your money into a long-term savings account) AND attempt to control your emotions (good luck with that - I have bad news for you, you're a human being and your emotions are the result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution) then you really are a dedicated soul. 

I see lots of people here stating that one should not come at trading with preconceived notions, and they then proceed to ignore what is staring them in the face because the pattern does not conform with what they expect from their 'system'.

There is an enormous amount of bluster and hypocrisy, but scant precious evidence of success.

Bon chance!

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1 hour ago, nit2wynit said:

If I was to have a mentor from day one, in the room with me that explicitly told me not to bet high, not to

Mentors can be very helpful, the problem is finding one who can help you develope in your own style rather than trying to bend you to their's. I've known some people who have tries 4 or 5 before making any headway. I also know that if I tried to trade at the start as I do now I couldn't have done it, it would have been a mess, so just trying to copy someone else's style will not usually work either. The problem with taking advice on forums is who to believe, I've seen whole cohorts of newbies being lead down a blind ally never to emerge again. Better to be lead by a mentor with a verified history than by an amateur with an ego.

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@Caseynotes also just taking the time to learn, most people just want to jump right in.

Trading on demo for an extended period allows exposure to the markets with no risk. the obvious downfall of this is with no risk there is the chance of paralysis by analysis.

I stuck to demo for almost 2 years and felt it was time to put experience to practice on a small size account, with the aim of adding to the size with monthly contributions that wont bankrupt me.

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1 minute ago, Caseynotes said:

Mentors can be very helpful, the problem is finding one who can help you develope in your own style rather than trying to bend you to their's. I've known some people who have tries 4 or 5 before making any headway. I also know that if I tried to trade at the start as I do now I couldn't have done it, it would have been a mess, so just trying to copy someone else's style will not usually work either. The problem with taking advice on forums is who to believe, I've seen whole cohorts of newbies being lead down a blind ally never to emerge again. Better to be lead by a mentor with a verified history than by an amateur with an ego.

I think philosophically ALL info is Good Info.  It's all part of your own knowledge base providing you understand it.  I've certainly learned from this forum from all that have jumped in and offered 'opinions' on my cause.  

I once watched a man Spray a Car.  It was effortless and the finish was amazing.  While observing him I took care to watch his speed, his stroke direction and his patience.  I figured providing I do the same I should also be able to do an amazing job.  However, what I didn't see was the Prep of the body beforehand.  The arduous sanding.  The mixing of the paint so it was the correct viscosity, or the pressure applied to the variable trigger on his spray gun.  

:D

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2 minutes ago, AbDXB1345 said:

@Caseynotes also just taking the time to learn, most people just want to jump right in.

Trading on demo for an extended period allows exposure to the markets with no risk. the obvious downfall of this is with no risk there is the chance of paralysis by analysis.

I stuck to demo for almost 2 years and felt it was time to put experience to practice on a small size account, with the aim of adding to the size with monthly contributions that wont bankrupt me.

I've proven consistently my wins on here....On the Demo using only a 2k account.  I was hoping to make £1k per week based upon my results.

Alas.......you can't be taught Fear of Loss.  You can't be taught the crippling side of it and the paralysis.  Fear creates doubt, doubt causes hesitation,  hesitation causes mistakes. (Said Yoda I think, or Dalton from Road House)

I've gone back to the Demo practicing as if i only had 1k.  So far I am up £250 or 25% in 3 days.  What I am still failing to do is find a screener.  You see I trade breakouts from Market Open only.  It's very very difficult to achieve using the Web Platform alone.  What are you using as a Platform?

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2 minutes ago, AbDXB1345 said:

@Caseynotes also just taking the time to learn, most people just want to jump right in.

Trading on demo for an extended period allows exposure to the markets with no risk. the obvious downfall of this is with no risk there is the chance of paralysis by analysis.

I stuck to demo for almost 2 years and felt it was time to put experience to practice on a small size account, with the aim of adding to the size with monthly contributions that wont bankrupt me.

A very reasonable approach, I would prefer a shorter time on the demo and shifting onto MT4 where you get the live account experience starting at a much lower position size to build up from than on any other platform but each to his own. 

Learning markets, trading technique (rather than being fixated on TA) is key, once you've learnt to trade on one market it's relatively simple to learn any of the others but it all takes time.

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10 minutes ago, nit2wynit said:

I think philosophically ALL info is Good Info.  It's all part of your own knowledge base providing you understand it.  I've certainly learned from this forum from all that have jumped in and offered 'opinions' on my cause.  

I once watched a man Spray a Car.  It was effortless and the finish was amazing.  While observing him I took care to watch his speed, his stroke direction and his patience.  I figured providing I do the same I should also be able to do an amazing job.  However, what I didn't see was the Prep of the body beforehand.  The arduous sanding.  The mixing of the paint so it was the correct viscosity, or the pressure applied to the variable trigger on his spray gun.  

:D

That's all true and there is plenty to learn, the problem with trading is that it's nothing like learning on a uni course or an apprenticeship. To get to grips with trading you need to bend your personality and twist your will, someone else can't really do that for you or show you the way, you have to do it to yourself.

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@nit2wynit I dont really use market screeners etc I used to try trading every day, opening and closing positions. I found I would have some success and then lots of losses.

I focus more on trend analysis and trying to get into a trend before it moves. An example is I am long Amazon and Walt Disney. Both were down for the last week or so, but are slowly moving up towards my opening position.

I am Long on Amazon as I suspect that as we head towards Black Friday sales and Christmas they will be having a large increase in sales. These should only be reflected in their 2020 Earnings, but it is better to get in now while the institutions are waiting other factor.

Walt Disney is a similar play, later this year they will be coming out with Frozen 2 (never seen Frozen 1 but have heard enough to make me believe this will be a hit in December), and the final episode of the StarWars series. They are also launching their streaming later this year, and I believe the winner of the streaming wars will be the one with the best content, Disney clearly ahead of the pack already.

Also shorted GBP/USD last week, again this is with the view that as Brexit continues to plod along and a stronger dollar will likely impact this currency the most.

Thats just my 2 cents.

 

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Well as I have already put in my 5+ years @dmedin now it is more a question of good judgement than good luck, which was the heart of my point.  The other main point was: if you don't want to put in the time and effort fair enough then don't.  Start a career as a doctor, or whatever else; put your money in the bank (good luck getting a decent rate though); buy and hold stocks (good luck when the markets crash though!  Don't think there is no risk with buy and hold, there is exactly the same risk as with trading, it is just a different method).

If you think there is another way, a short cut to success trading, then be prepared to join the 80+%.  Pretty much all the long time posters here on the forum say the same thing in this regard, it is probably the only thing we all agree on.  The short term posters may not say this because they are no longer here or have only just arrived.

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Five years of losses can only be manageable if one trades infrequently or mostly on the demo, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect better - putting money into savings or holding stocks will certainly be better than that (don't forget dividends), so it would not make sense for anyone to bother trading with real money.

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You get dividends on trading too, I got a massive one last night on the Nikkei.

For most people, and the stats bear this out, your thesis is correct.  If you don;t think you can make a success of it and are not willing to put in the effort to become successful then chose a different path.  For those who have the capability the route to success is as I and other have laid out.  Not sure what your point is over and above that really?

I posted to try and help answer the original question from @AbDXB1345.  I assume he wants to give it a go.  However if he doesn't fancy the journey better to quite now.

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OK @dmedindo it!  For me the chances that the run ends are too high.  What happens to buy and hold when that chart reverses?  Will you get out and cut losses?  That is not the strategy of buy and hold so what you will do is hold on and eventually sell out at the bottom and lose everything.  With trading we look to cut losses much much earlier than that and trade with the trend.  Only in trading can you Short the market.

Seriously it is horses for courses.  You have the facts and the logic from people who have traded consistently for more than 5 years in this and other threads.  Do you need anything else to make up your mind?

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